Will Evans | The Impact of Optimizing Lifetime Value

In the ecommerce world, email marketing remains one of the most powerful revenue drivers. But many online retailers are losing out because their email strategy isn’t as powerful as it should be in some of the most important elements of generating profits. 

By focusing on email marketing strategy, Will Evans and his team at SellerFlows help clients increase lifetime value and average order value. When you get the same customers to buy again and again, you reduce your marketing costs and increase profits. 

Will shares how he gets results for his clients through automation, as well as other techniques and tricks. If you have a Shopify store especially you’ll want to tune in to find out all about the email marketing tool that integrates perfectly with that platform. 

We’ll also talk about… 

  • The must-have email flow for any ecommerce business
  • Why marketing automation isn’t “set it and forget it”
  • The automated email series with a 15% to 20% conversion rate 
  • How post-purchase emails can boost lifetime value
  • Up-to-date methods and pro tips on how to create optimized email flows which boost conversions in today’s ecommerce environment

Listen now…

Mentioned in this episode:

Episode Transcript:

Joris Bryon: Hey, this is Joris of the Ecommerce Excellence Podcast. And today I’ll be talking to Will Evans. Will is the founder of an agency called Sellerflows. And Will has helped thousands of ecommerce sites to increase their revenue, mainly by focusing on email marketing and customer journeys. And I’m sure it is going to be a very interesting episode because it’s a topic that I’m very passionate about myself. And I’m sure we’ll learn a thing or two about stuff like email flows, increasing average order value, increasing customer lifetime value. Hey Will. Welcome to the podcast. Super glad to have you here.

Will Evans: Hey, awesome. Thanks for having me.

Joris: Cool. Yeah, just to start off, can you tell us a bit more about you? About your background? Where’d you come from in your career? How did you get started with ecommerce and with Sellerflows?

Will: Right. Yeah, so I’ve been pretty much in ecommerce since about college. I guess I didn’t know it at the time, but I was sort of like building WordPress sites in college, and sort of getting paid for that. And that was like, sort of my first I guess, foray into like entrepreneurship and digital marketing and all that stuff. And about that time, I guess, I graduated 2009, and I guess 2012 ish, somewhere around there, Shopify launched. And so I started my first store then. It was a men’s grooming store. 

And so I sort of like cut my teeth, learning about business and ecommerce and Shopify, and I sort of started there. And then eventually transitioned into running my own agency, specifically helping some of these bigger stores that are now like, what I would call like Shopify plus stores. Mainly with Klaviyo, email marketing, customer journey. A lot of our clients now use a tool called Carthook. So we help them that. Just really anything that’s optimizing their lifetime value and their average order value.

Joris: Okay, cool. So what happened to the men’s grooming store?

Will: Oh, a friend of mine runs it now. So I sold it to him maybe like three years ago? Yeah. So it’s been a while. But yeah, that was like back then it was like, it’s crazy how, you know, back then it was like, oh, if you’re doing like, 50k a month, that’s like a big Shopify store, you know? Now you’ll see people doing like 50k a day. So it’s crazy how far Shopify has come. 

Joris: Yeah, absolutely. So you guys work exclusively with Klaviyo as an email platform, right? And why Klaviyo? I mean, we use it ourselves as well. And we absolutely love it. But I’m curious to hear why you’re so fond of it.

Why Choose Klaviyo?

Will: Right. So I think it has the best integration with Shopify. It also integrates with Woocommerce, and Magento and Bigcommerce. Some of these other CRMs. But it really integrates well with Shopify. Specifically with these, what they would call like metrics in Klaviyo. Like a metric would be Oh, someone who started Checkout, or someone who placed an order, or someone who ordered this product. 

And so it’s really, really easy to set up automations around that, while with other CRMs you might have created a tag or some sort of property for when that event happens. And it just makes things a little bit more complex for a lot of store owners who really aren’t even marketers, you know? They’re mostly just focused on, you know, driving traffic or, you know, managing their team or, you know, just running a general online store in general. So they don’t necessarily have the time to sort of build out this more advanced logic that might be needed on another email CRM.

Joris: Yeah, that comes pretty much out of the box in Klaviyo, so that you’re gonna hit the ground running. And then or typically, are your clients already on Klaviyo when they come to you, or do you have to convince them to switch platforms?

Will: When I first started, we’re doing a lot of migrations, typically from MailChimp to Klaviyo. But now, pretty much all of them are either on Klaviyo and they need it to be optimized, or they just signed up for it, and they need someone who kind of knows what they’re doing. And then occasionally, now that I don’t know, if you follow the news in the past couple months like Shopify had sort of like a disagreement, and they no longer support the app. 

Or I guess the MailChimp store, the MailChimp app is no longer in the Shopify store. So now a lot of MailChimp customers have been coming over to Klaviyo. We’ve been doing some migrations, but most of the time they already have it set up and we come in and sort of optimize it.

Joris: Yeah. Is it a big deal to do migration? Because I can imagine, some people don’t really know a lot about email marketing might be a bit reluctant to switch to Klaviyo because they think it’s a hassle.

Will: Yeah, it is. It is a little bit of a, I’ve got like sort of an SOP or checklist now on how to do it correctly. But there’s a lot of little things that go into the migrations, it’s not so simple. It’s just like Alright we’re going to move your, you know, your brand and checkout over to Klaviyo now. You know, there’s all these little there’s, you know, certain like tracking code. 

There’s also like, all these little sort of inputs that you have on your store, you know, like, for example, a lot of stores will have like a subscribe box in their footer, or they’ll have like certain pop-ups. You need to sort of like, go through the whole store sort of audit how, like every single entry point for email that someone will come in. Like a prospect will come in and sort of make sure that checks the box, and then everything gets over ported over to Klaviyo. 

Joris: Yeah, right. So you set up Klaviyo, integrate it with Shopify. What kind of flows or automation that sort of platforms may call it but in Klaviyo, it’s always about flows, what do you recommend setting up?

Will: Right. So you know, there’s, I would say, like, we mostly start with like three or four. Like, I know that every store, no matter what industry you’re in, what your average order value doesn’t even matter. Every store needs to have an abandoned checkout flow. A really good one, sometimes it can have a 15, or even seen a 20% conversion rate there. So every store needs to have that. Then there needs there also needs to be a good pre-purchase flow. Some people will call that like a welcome flow or indoctrination flow, I’ve heard it called. 

But basically, a flow where people get onboarded into some sort of email automation, whether it’s via pop up or some sort of form on one of your pages on your site. And it’s again, it’s a pre-purchase flow. It’s only going to, it’s only for people who have never bought from you before. So typically the that’ll have a high placed order rate as well. And then, you know, two other flows that we’d like to think about early on, is a post-purchase flow. So that’s a flow for people that just bought something from you. 

And you sort of, you know, you frame the expectations of what the relationship is going to be moving forward. And then you might make them an offer later in the flow. And the whole goal of that flow, again, is to sort of like indoctrinate them. Make them become like, you know, ambassadors for your brand, and also make them an offer that’s going to increase your lifetime value. So that works really well, too. 

And then the last flow that we’re kind of looking at is the browser abandonment flow because we’ve been getting a lot of traction on that. And it’s very similar to the abandoned cart or an abandoned checkout flow. Basically, it’s anybody who browses a product page, and they don’t go into the checkout and they don’t order, then they line up for an automation, it sends them some emails. Just checking in to see if they want to order the product and maybe giving them an offer later down the line.

Joris: Yeah. How do you go about the creep factor with browse abandonment? Because I mean, if people abandon looking at a product a couple of times you send them, send them an email saying Hey, don’t forget to buy this product. There’s a creep factor to it, right? It not everyone feels comfortable with it. You have like any tips or tricks?

Tips on How to Tactfully Approach Cart Abandonment

Will: Right. Yeah, so we typically delay it. But it’s something you need to test because we tested it, you know, sometimes it works better with a four-hour delay. And then sometimes I’ve seen it work really good with just 30 minutes later. What you don’t want to do is send it immediately. Because some people will do that on the abandoned checkout flow. And it tends to work, but the browser abandonment, yeah. We always like to delay it a little bit. Another thing we do is we add value in the email in the browser abandonment. 

So some of our more advanced engagements, we’re sort of splitting the browser abandonment flow based on the product they might have abandoned. Typically, what’s going on there is is it’s like a dynamic block, that sort of retargeting the product that they looked at. We might like I said, split the path based on which product they abandon and sort of talk about the products and features and maybe social proof and stuff like that, about that product that maybe they missed on the product page. So that’s one way we’re sort of fighting, like unsubscribes and stuff like that where people might get creeped out.

Joris: Yeah, absolutely. I mean, you’re in the US. I’m in Europe. GDPR is a thing here in Europe. In the US, not so much unless you sell to the EU as well. How do you go about that? Because I know browser abandonment flow. It might be in a between zone legally speaking. So we talked about that sometimes the clients as well. And I don’t think there’s a big problem, but I’m not a lawyer, of course. So do you have any opinion on that?

Will: Yeah, so some of the brands we work with they have legal teams. So you know, we will not only just stuff like that, like GDPR, but also compliance around the copy. Especially if they’re in like health niches and stuff like that where you just got to dot your I’s cross your T’s there. So some brands,  we sort of like have an open line of communication with the legal team. Most of the stuff we’re doing with GDPR is more centered around like list cleanings. Just sort of like making sure you know, people that are outside of, I guess, who are not in compliance, we just remove them from the list.

Joris: Yeah, that makes sense of course. Any apart from those four flows that you mentioned are there any, like more advanced flows that you sometimes setup?

Will: Yeah, typically, the more advanced stuff that we’re looking to do it on the back end in what I would call post-purchase, or loyalty marketing. And really where it gets more advanced is with our clients that are selling consumables, whether that’s like a cosmetic or a supplement, and they have like, different offers around like a certain product. So let’s say I’m selling like, you know, the first company I started my grooming line, we sold face wash, okay? 

So say I’m selling a men’s face wash. I order the product, okay? And then 30 days later there’s a variety of options I have, that we can use as marketers at our disposal, to I guess, try to increase the lifetime value there. And this is sort of getting back to customer journey. So it’s like you could, you know, you could get on a subscription. For example, if they just bought a one-off order, you could put you could make them an offer to get on a subscription. You could also make them an offer to sort of bundle. 

Like, hey, like, you don’t want to get on a subscription, how about you buy a three-pack, and then you’re good for the next, you know, six months or something. And then you can just give them an offer to sort of, you know, just buy a one-off order. Okay, so that works really well. That’s sort of like a that works well in like a post-purchase flow, or an upsell flow. Now, let’s say if they bought the face wash, and on a subscription okay? 

So it could be some nurturing involved there. So they might not be like offer emails. It might be like sort of an email flow that’s just telling them how to use it or giving them tips. Because what probably the biggest problem for all subscription brands, I would say is consumption. And they’re not their customers are not consuming the product enough. So we kind of help kind of like fight consumption their inflows like that. Yeah, I mean, like, I could go like a lot deeper there. If you want to talk about more flows. But I mean, typically, I would say where it gets more advanced in the post-purchase.

Joris: Okay, yeah, that makes sense. Whenever you take over a client’s Klaviyo account and see how they set it up and look at the flows, for instance, what are like the typical mistakes you see in those accounts?

Will: One big problem we see a lot is not so much on the automation, but it’s on the campaigns. Like the broadcast newsletters, is they’re not really sending to engage, what we call an engage list. They’re just sending to everybody in their account. And you could do that, you know, when you first get started. But what I’ve found unless you have like a really good brand, who’s like, with subscribers who are super loyal to you.

Like once you start getting over like 30, 40, 50,000 email subscribers in your database, you need to really start segmenting your weekly newsletter to what we call like an engaged list, or an engage segment, which would typically be people who have maybe open an email within the past 30 to 90 days. And you’re kind of playing around with that segment, but it needs to be warm, if that makes sense.

Joris: Okay, so when the flow is set up, is your work done? I mean, I know there’s a lot of people who think about marketing automation and email flows as a set and forget kind of thing. But do you keep working on it? Do you keep tweaking it optimizing testing?

Will: Right. Yeah. So I think there is some like optimization involved, you know. We have like certain benchmarks we’re looking to hit. So it’s like we’re looking for, really, we’re looking at that placed order rate. We’re also looking at open rate and click-through rate. And, you know, if it’s down, then yeah, like we’re trying to split test there and figure out ways to increase those KPIs. 

Another thing too, is like, you know, companies that are really growing that have, they’re launching new products and sort of launching new, maybe even new marketing channels and stuff like that, they need like more automation around that and support around that. And sort of like working out ways to, you know, I guess support those new products and marketing initiatives, whether it’s pre-purchase or post-purchase. 

There’s also with Klaviyo lot of work around segmentation, building out sort of segments that they, because you know, one thing  a lot of brands are using now is this sort of dynamic segments Klaviyo can create, where, let’s say I just want to create a segment for people that placed an order in the past 90 days. So I can create that segment and then I can sync it to Facebook. And so these companies that are and that’ll create an audience and Facebook and these companies that are you know, have like big media buying teams, you know, they need that sort of support as well.

Joris: Yeah, of course. So you already mentioned one thing that you could test, for instance, splitting up a browser amendment flow based on the value of the products they’ve been looking at. Any other things you can test in a flow?

Will: Right, yeah. So yeah, I mean, where it gets more advanced is definitely splitting paths based on products that they ordered. Another thing we do too is we split the path based on if they’re a customer or a non-customer. So obviously, so will you call that like a prospect versus customer. So anyone who is truly a prospect and is never ordered, we might give them even like a sweeter deal. Like, let’s say it’s like a browser abandonment flow just to stay on that same subject. You know, what we’ll do sometimes with the brands is we might send a browser abandonment, we might send one email to somebody who’s a customer, right? 

And that’s it, because we don’t want to, like freak them out, we don’t want to, you know, just over send them emails. But if their prospect like they’ve never shopped with us before, we might split the path there and have them go down another path. And then we’re giving them like more discount codes, or whatever the offer is. Maybe it’s like, you know, some brands will do like Bogo offers and stuff like that just to sort of like push them over the edge to get them to become a customer. So that can get really advanced there. 

Another thing we do, too, is we do for some of our clients that are in fashion, we’ve been having some success with what I would call like collection based automation, where it’s like say I, you know, I buy like a shirt, you know, from like a store or something, or maybe it’s like a skirt. So we can, you know, they’ll have these like to be the fashion brands will have a bunch of collections. So we sort of think about the customer journey like that. It’s like, well, if I shopped with this collection, what might, what like will I need later on to support the product that I bought in that from that collection? 

So that can get really advanced quick based on what they bought and what they didn’t buy. There’s a lot of innovation right now around average order value and customer lifetime value. So Klaviyo is really at the cutting edge of this, especially when it comes to lifetime value, sort of putting people down certain paths or putting people in certain segments based on what their lifetime value or what their average order value is. 

Because obviously, let’s say if something, let’s say their lifetime value is really high, you know, like, you might not need to make them like a very big offer. Because they’re going to come back anyway. Same thing with average order value. It’s like, well if the average order value is really small, you know, we probably don’t want to give away a big offer because the order value is small. But if it’s lower, you know, maybe we want to, I mean, excuse me the tire, maybe we want to give like a bigger offer. Yeah, so it’s you can get really advanced really quickly. 

Joris: Yeah, absolutely. So people who thought like, Oh, I’m gonna set up a few flows real quick, and we’re done. That’s not really the case. I can imagine you don’t work with clients for just a few months, but more on an ongoing basis.

Will: Yeah. Because like, kinda gets into that stuff, you know, you sort of attack certain areas. And you know, and now that Klaviyo has come out kind of touching back on this, what they call it like predictive analytics. They’re now coming out with this, not only where you can sort of segment people based on what their historical lifetime value is, but now they have this, like expected lifetime value. It’s just based on all these sort of, you know, ai and stuff that’s coming out now and digital marketing. 

So it’s really interesting to see, you know, what’s going on with that tool. And they’re actually having a conference on Tuesday, so I’m flying to Boston. So I’m sure that they’ll have, they’ll probably announce some product features. And you know, who knows what’s going to be what I’m going to be talking about next week?

Joris: I’ll have to interview you again, next week. That’s the thing, they’re always innovating. And they always come up with cool, useful stuff. That’s really customer focused. So that’s also one of the reasons we really love working with Klaviyo. You’re, we’ve been talking about flows. But there’s more to email marketing than just flows, of course. There’s also the traditional newsletter or campaigns, whatever you want to call it. Do you have like some general recommendations about do’s and don’ts, what works and what doesn’t work? 

Do’s and Don’ts of Email Marketing

Will: Right. Yeah, so I mean, newsletters can really, you know, flows, yeah, just sort of, you can set it up and sort of brings revenue in every day, especially if you’re big. But, you know, if you really want to get to what I would say, like some of these brands are doing like 30, or even 40% of their revenue coming from email marketing, you really also need to have a strong newsletter. And typically, that involves, you know, having a calendar set up, and you’re planning certain sends well in advance. And you also have a variety of sends that you’re sending. So most people will send, you know, like promotional emails, like, hey, like, 20% off sale, or Bogo sale, or stuff like that. 

Or they might do like, a, like a product, launch email, if they’re launching a new product, but there’s also some other emails you can send, you know? We send, you know, we manage stuff like, certainly content emails, maybe it’s just like sharing a blog post. That, again, it’s not going to drive a lot of sales, but it’s going to keep people engaged. We also do like product-focused emails, where it’s like focusing on like a certain product in that segment. And you might not send that to a newsletter to the whole list. You might send that to people who abandoned browse, abandon that product and didn’t order.Something like that. So it’s like a product-focused email. 

And then it can be like, you can even do like a social proof focused email around that product. We do the same thing with collection. So it can be like, right, this is like a collection focused email newsletter with that. And then like social proof around that collection. So there’s a lot of different stuff. And when you start, like really breaking it down into all the sort of types of campaigns you can send, and then like the holidays that are coming up, and obviously like Black Friday, and all this stuff, you can build out a calendar. You know, an annual calendar, an annual newsletter calendar, and like, you know, just a few days doesn’t take that long.

Joris: That’s true. I mean, there’s the classic events, of course. So that’s already, that gives you some guidance, and then you can quickly come up with a bunch of other ideas. You just mentioned Black Friday, Cyber Monday. I believe this interview is going to be published probably it’s going to be live, I think, one or two weeks before. So by the time people will be listening to this they may be too late to implement it. But do you have any ideas? Any initial suggestions, tips, tricks for Black Friday, Cyber Monday?

Will: Yeah, I, you know, I would say like, the number one tip I would have is don’t feel like so pressured to just, you know, what I’m calling give away the farm. Because like, I’ve noticed, like, a few of my clients have said, like, Well, you know, we killed it on Black Friday. We made like, you know, I’ve seen some campaigns do just like $60,000 before. But when we like worked back the numbers, and we looked like months later, and we looked at the cost of goods sold, and the average order values and the lifetime value for those customers, like, we might have actually lost money. Just keep that in mind. Like, don’t be afraid to, you know, don’t necessarily think that you have to totally, like kill it that day. 

But you do need to give like a really good offer, I think you should like your best sales offer should be around that day, like Black Friday, Cyber Monday. And then another thing I, you know, I think a lot of the big stores know this, but if you’re not and you’re sort of wondering what your strategy is, we kind of, say Black Friday is really like a month or month long, you know? Or we have like, there’s sort of like a pre buff to Black Friday. You might even get like, sort of like an early access to people before like Thanksgiving. So there’s that those first few days where you can sort of get sales. Then you obviously have Black Friday and Cyber Monday, which really needs to be your best sale. 

But then you have all these other sort of days. Like there’s like, you know, it’s called cyber Green Monday is one, I think it’s like eBay’s day. And then you can do a lot of marketing, like shipping marketing, like, all the way up to Christmas. Like hey, like, you know, we’re giving discounted shipping or discounted two-day shipping and stuff like that. And then you know, after Christmas, there’s a big push all the way up to the New Year. So that so when we think about Black Friday, Cyber Monday, we really think of it is like this month-long initiative. Your fourth quarter initiative, where there’s a variety of promotional emails going out.

Joris: Okay, yeah, that’s actually really smart and good advice. Maybe just let’s go back to the flows. I had one more question. When would you advise to start doing this? I mean, how big should a store be before you start setting up flows? 

Will: It’s never too early. But I would say like, if you’re doing, you know, over $1,000 a day in sales, like I think that’s when you really want to start thinking about it. You should definitely get the basics of it. Even Shopify, even if you don’t have Klaviyo like Shopify has an abandoned cart email. I think it’s just one email. And it’s sort of like, and then you know, like, it’s just default turned on. So you know, they have these like, basic automation, and there’s even some, like, less advanced tools in the Shopify app store that are free, that can do some of the basic stuff for you. 

But I think like, you know, if you’re not doing any sales yet, or you’re just getting a few sales a day, then I wouldn’t prioritize email marketing so much. I would prioritize me buying traffic generator, whatever you’re doing to bring traffic in. And then once you get to a certain level you can start thinking about optimizing some of this stuff. But yeah, once you start getting over 1000, 2000, 5000 dollars a day, certainly like, you’re really going to see an ROI on it.

Joris: Yeah. Okay, cool. What are good ways to capture email addresses? I mean, you see a lot of like, the footer of the site, sign up for a newsletter. Obviously, that’s not working really well. I see a lot of pop-ups with all kinds of messages. Oftentimes a discount. Sometimes, a discount pops up, like the second I land on the site. I don’t even know what they’re selling yet. So I see a lot of mistakes happening there. Are any, like good ways to capture email addresses or any cool or clever lead magnets that you came across?

Will: Yeah, right. So the real hot trend right now is like the spin the win stuff, but in like, you will get a lot of email addresses. You will get a higher conversion rate of email addresses there, then just doing like your traditional pop-up. However, they’re not always the most engaged. They’re not always like, when you actually look at the value per recipient, it tends to be lower. So you know, I always tell people, like, you know, more emails doesn’t always mean better. So you know, and like I said, you can do the spin to win stuff. 

But again, you will get more emails, but it doesn’t necessarily mean you’re going to get more revenue. And I would say in terms of offers, you know, I still see like, just basic pop-ups or slide outs, or embed forums and stuff like that, still is like, you know, the number one way to capture most email addresses. And the offers that work the best are the ones that put people in the frame to make a purchase. So that’s why discount codes work really well or like special offers when you order work really well. And in like, sort of more like internet marketing based offers, like, you know, download my free report, or my ebook don’t always work so well, for email trends.

Joris: Okay. Yeah, that makes sense. So you’re also a Carthook specialist. And maybe for people who don’t know Carthook yet. Can you explain to me what it is and what it does?

What is Carthook?

Will: Yeah, so Carthook is kind of like Clickfunnels for Shopify stores. And that’s what I tell people. That they instantly get it then. So it’s like, it’s the ability to make, you know, post-purchase offers, once someone checks out. So it’s like funnels, basically. So, you know, traditionally what will happen if you shop on an ecommerce store is you’ll go, you know, you’ll go to a product page, you’ll add to cart, you’ll go to the cart, you’ll go into the checkout, you’ll place your order, and then you’ll go to a thank you page. 

And then you know, thank you page will tell you, you know, this is your order number and stuff like that. With Carthook, what it does is in between the checkout and the thank you page, you can put in a funnel with various offers. So you can put up cells and down cells and stuff like that. And the reason you want to do that is because it has a dramatic effect on your average order value. And if you’re a big ecommerce store, you know that’s one of your top KPIs. 

Average order value, and lifetime value. And especially if you buy a lot of media like you do a lot of paid traffic, you know, like having a high average order value is key for you to be able to break even on your traffic on day one. So that’s why a lot of these stores are using tools like Carthook.

Joris: So are there any shops in particular, you would recommend Carthook for?

Will: Right. Yeah. So Carthook, you know, is really trying to swim, what I would say like upstream. And they really want to work with, you know, sort of the brands I want to work with, like consumable brands who actually have a brand and are trying to sort of, you know, solve customer problems and think about their customer journey. They’re not so much looking to work with like the drop shippers of the world and stuff like that. 

If you are a drop shipper, where you’re doing sort of like more direct response marketing, there’s better tools out there, I would say than Carthook. I mean, Carthook is really trying to work with like, you know, like the Doctor Ax’s of the world. That’s good because most people know that brand. And it’s like, they sell they solve a lot of pain points, they add a lot of value. And they also have they have good products, and they’re also selling like consumables.

Joris: Okay. How many upsells and downsells would you recommend setting up with Carthook? Because, of course, you can go on forever, you have to stop at some point. What’s the sweet spot?

Will: Yeah, that’s a great question. So I think you have the ability to do three upsells and three down sells, So really, you have people who make six offers. But I would say the only time you want to do that is on a paid traffic funnel, or like a cold traffic funnel, some brands will call it. Because at that point, you know,  this is cold traffic, you’re having to pay a lot for that traffic, and you really want to maximize the value of the order there. So that’s really the only time I see a lot of the brands be more aggressive there. 

Typically what you’ll see done is on just sort of like your what I would call it organic traffic or like your like store traffic. Let’s say like, you know, someone lands on your homepage. And then they, you know, whether they land from search or social media or something like that, or email, a lot of those brands will still be using Carthook as well. And they might make one offer with one downsell, or they might make you know, two offers, or three offers. It’s something you should test. But I would say like if you’re a brand like you don’t want to go overboard with offers. Unless it’s you know, you’re really, you’re doing cold traffic.

Joris: Yeah, because it’s a fine line between trying to get a higher average order value increasing your customer, offer a course. So apart from using Carthook, are there any other great ways to increase average order value?

Will: Yeah, totally. I mean, there’s, I would say like, you know, you need to test it because sometimes you can, so Carthook is like a post-purchase average order value initiative, like a post-purchase optimization. But you could get the same result pre-purchase, you know? I think a lot of that happens on your product page. You know, having like a good product page, that sort of giving people different options, you know, stick in, like the consumables space, like, you know, you can upsell right there on the product page. 

So I would start there, you know, sometimes you can get like a, depending on your average order value, like, you know, excuse me your price points, you can get like a 10 or $20 bump on your average order value just right there. Some other offers that work well, I mean, obviously, like related items still work very well. Related items on the product page. Related items in the cart, really well. Cart bumps, we call them those words pretty well. It’s a special offer in the cart, that might pop up. 

Another thing that we tested, it works pretty well to that not all brands use, but it’s like a, I forget the name of this app. But it’s an app in the Shopify store that works with your like hello bar if you know that little bar and notification bar. It tells you how the dollar amount you’re away in cart value to getting free shipping. So let’s say they’re $6 away like people will just add to the cart to get the free shipping. That’s like kind of a cheap little way to increase AOV too. 

Joris: Yeah, cool. Lots of good actionable tips here. Maybe one last question. And that’s what I really like to ask to, like, everyone I’m talking to here in a podcast. What’s the biggest mistake you made?

Mistakes Will Made in His Ecommerce Career

Will: The biggest mistake in ecommerce that I made? Let’s see. You know, I think I’ve made like, a, the reason like, I have a lot of knowledge on this, because I’ve made a lot of mistakes. Like, I know why it’s like we’re talking about segmenting the list. Like, I know why it’s important to do that. Because I’ve been through, like the process of having to, you know, like, go through, like, do deliverability and like work on that. I’d say like, the biggest mistake I’ve made is probably more around like not listening to customers, you know? 

Not really focusing on what they need, like empathizing with them. Because if you don’t really do that, then everything else in your marketing fails. You know, if you don’t really understand what the core problem, I guess your mission and your values as, or your clients’ missions and values and you don’t sort of frame your offers around that. It doesn’t matter what tool you use, what tactic you try, it’s not going to work. So like it’s the base fundamentals are still are the same. We’re just using, like new technology to sort of make these offers.

Joris: Yeah. Yeah, that’s actually great advice to end with as well. Hey Will, this has been absolutely great. And I know we could nerd on for hours here. But we’re running out of time and just want to make sure that people know how they can find you and learn more about you. What’s the best place for people to connect with you? 

Will: Right, so they can they can connect with me at sellerflows.com. You can sort of if you want to talk about how maybe my team can help you sort of grow your average order value or help you with your email marketing or anything with your lifetime value or your customer journey, you can go to sellerflows.com. And yeah, you can just, you know, book an appointment with me. A one on one call and we can chat about it.

Joris: Okay, awesome. Thanks so much for being here Will. It’s been absolutely great.

Will: Awesome. Thanks for having me.