Shep Hyken | Ecommerce Customer Service Secrets

In our Digital Age, it’s tempting to digitize your ecommerce business’ customer service department as well. Award-winning speaker and author Shep Hyken contends that, when you take away the “human touch,” you’ll find you’ve lost a key element that keeps prospects from turning into customers and customers from becoming repeat customers… not to mention turning into raving fans that tell the world about you and bring in more business. 

But effective customer service is about much more than simply providing an 800 number or sending out surveys. The whole company has to be involved in enhancing the experience of buying and providing help if there are issues – not just a dedicated customer service department. 

We unpack how to do just that, as well as explore… 

  • Simple things you can do now to boost your customer service
  • What you can learn from honest customer feedback
  • Chatbot dos and don’ts 
  • One of the biggest mistakes ecommerce companies make with their customers
  • Invaluable tips on how to stay ahead of the competition and truly become awesome

Listen now…

Mentioned in this episode:

Episode Transcript:

Joris Bryon: Hey, this Joris of the Ecommerce Excellence Podcast. And today I’m super excited to talk to Shep Hyken. Shep is a customer service and experience expert. He’s a New York Times and Wall Street Journal bestselling author, and he’s part of the National Speakers Association Hall of Fame for Lifetime Achievement in the speaking profession. Whoa so impressive I stumble over my words, but he works with companies who want to build loyal relationships with their customers and employees. 

And he’s been featured in hundreds of publications. And he’s also the author of several books such as Moments of Magic, The Loyal Customer, the Cult of the Customer, The Amazement Revolution, Amaze Every Customer Every Time, Be Amazing or Go Home and his latest addition to this very impressive list, the Convenience Revolution. Shep, welcome to the podcast. I must say I’m really honored to have you here.

Shep Hyken: Joris It’s a pleasure to be here. Thanks for having me. We got lots to talk about.

Joris: Yeah, absolutely. But before we get started, maybe, yeah. Can you tell us a bit more about your background, where you come from in your career? How did you get started? And how did you get to this point?

Story of a Customer Excellence Phenomenon

Shep: Sure. Well, let’s go back to when I was just a kid, I started my first business when I was 12 years old. That was before the internet. So, but I was a birthday party magician. Now that may not sound like a big deal. I would go out and perform at birthday parties, a little magic show and the parents would pay me but that first show I came home, my mom said after dinner, she wanted me to write a thank you note. And that was my first lesson in customer service. And then my dad said, Great idea, follow up with a phone call a week later, thank them again and ask them how they liked the show. 

So that was about not just showing appreciation and customer service that was now getting feedback. And then my dad’s had get specific asked what tricks they really liked. And they’ll tell you, and after you do a number of shows, you’ll hear the same tricks over and over. And what you’ll also not here are some of the same tricks, over and over, you’re not hearing and those are tricks to get rid of. And so little did I know that was called process improvement. And as I talked to companies today, some of the largest companies in the world, I mean, those are some of the tenants in the basics of customer service. Show appreciation, get feedback, act on the feedback and improve the situation. Of course, there’s much more than that. 

But that was my first lesson or my first lessons in customer service. And they carried forward, I worked in a retail environment. And I recognize how important it was to focus on the customer and take care of them. And as I graduated college and was looking for something to do, I thought, wouldn’t it be cool to be a speaker and talk about what I am very passionate about. That is servicing others in business. And really, that’s how it all started. That was many, many years ago, and seven books ago. And so that’s where it brings us to today. And here we are talking about it and how it applies to ecommerce. 

And really, there’s no difference in my mind, customer service and customer experience, regardless of whether you’re in person over the internet, doing a digital experience with your customers. There’s certain, I guess, basics that need to be hit. And these customers, if you want them to do business with you, again, you’ve got to create confidence. Confidence comes from consistency. And it’s like, well, every time I do business with them, it’s so easy. We think about, you know how Amazon, who to me, and here in the US the biggest best, you know, an ecommerce company, if not in the world. 

And what do they create an incredible level of confidence, with you know, immediately confirming that your purchase is gone through. Immediately letting you know when the order is ready to ship giving you the tracking information. And that’s what companies need to do in order to create confidence, they need to set up their processes that are very customer-focused, customer-friendly, and give the customer a little bit of control. 

Because that’s what we do online, is we give total control to the customer to their shopping experience. They come and go when they please. They shop when they want. I know I’m getting way off the topic of Shep, what’s your background, but that’s what I think we’re going to talk about today.

Joris: Yeah, absolutely. But I love the story. And I love how you got started off at such a young age with the thank you note and a follow-up and really creating a feedback loop before that would become actually a thing I guess. Anyway, so you’re all about customer service. Excellent. And you already touched upon that a little bit. But it’s not just about good or Okay, customer service, right? How do you go? What we say is the basics, you already touched upon confidence and consistency. But how to take it one step further than that? 

Consistency Is Key

Shep: Sure. So I talked about creating an amazing experience. And this is not a hard thing to do. As a matter of fact, the idea of amazement is within the grasp of everyone. So if you were to rate your, if you have an interaction with a company, and you say how did you like your experience? You know, what you’re hoping for on a scale of one to five, you’d love to get a five every time. Wouldn’t that be great? Wouldn’t that be, you know, basically, hey, we’re amazing. Or a scale of one to 10, or an NPS net promoter score of zero to 10, you’re trying to get that nine or 10. So what does it take to get that nine or 10? 

Or on a scale of one to five. What does it take to get that five? And the idea is to be amazing, you don’t always have to perform at the level of a five. What you have to do is be better than average, all of the time. A little bit better than average all of the time. And it’s all of the time the part that is difficult. That’s where people are going to say, I love doing business with them. You know, ecommerce example. You know, I always know when my order went through. And whenever I have a question I call them they’re always quick to respond. 

They always ship out in the first day, you know, all the word always followed by something positive, is what you’re looking for. And average is average. But when you put the word always in front of something good. And let me take this to another level, Horace Schultz. So I had a great opportunity to interview Horace Schultz. And by the way, I’ve been a fan of him of his for years and years, and many people have no idea who he is. He was the co-founder and first president of the Ritz Carlton Hotel chain, when they became a hotel chain, I believe it was probably back in the early 80s, sometime around the 80s. 

Anyway, whenever it was, his goal was to create one of the finest brands in the world. And he said the way to do it is to be 10% better than average. Again, all of the time. And you’ll have opportunities to go above and beyond when there’s problems. But typically, just day in and day out, the typical experience should be above average. Now let’s put this into number terms. If average 10% above average, on a scale of one to five, the average is three. So all you have to do is be a 3.3 or better. 

Think about that. Now what that means is you’re not allowed to be a three. If you’re three, you’re below 3.3, obviously, but and by the way, one or two is easier to solve and get people back on to the above-average side than it is a three because at three when your average people don’t complain. They don’t let you know how they feel because it’s just okay. If somebody has a real complaint and if you don’t solve it, they’re going to give you a one for terrible service. But when they bring it to your attention, they see how good you are taking care of them, then you’ll bump them right up to a four or five again, just like that. Hopefully that makes sense.

Joris: Yeah, absolutely. And what is interesting, better than average, I think everyone gets that. But all of the time. I think that’s the difficult part, right? Because if you drop the ball once, and you have to talk back at zero. 

Shep: Yeah, I mean, essentially, we, you know, you get it. And if you drop the ball, that by the way, again, I want to emphasize it when somebody calls with a complaint, it’s easy to get them back to a five if you handle it the right way. Okay. However, if somebody doesn’t call because they aren’t, like really unhappy, but they’re not really happy either, they’re gonna, they’re never going to give you that five. They’ll give you a three or four. And you’re trying to avoid that world-class is being recognized for amazing service on a consistent basis.

Joris: Yeah, absolutely. And it really depends on the sector you play in, I can imagine. Because at the end of the day, if you do better, you have to do better than your competitors. And that’s it, or do look at it also in more absolute terms?

Shep: Yeah, I mean, it sectors definitely make a difference. I mean, the bar is low in certain industries. Which means, you know, you just got to be better than that. Well, I disagree with people who say that, and I’ll tell you why. The bar is set high by rockstar companies because our customers are being trained as to what great customer service is. 

So if you do business with a company that you love, and then you go to a completely different industry, you’ll think why can’t these people be as nice as or as good as whoever it is, you know, whoever else. And therefore, our customers don’t compare us to the direct competitor anymore, they compare us to the best service they’ve ever received from anyone.

Joris: Right. Yeah, that makes sense. Any companies that come to mind? You mentioned Amazon, any other ecommerce companies that you know that okay, that they set the bar really high?

Pioneering Companies In Customer Satisfaction

Shep: Oh, well, you know, you’ve got ecommerce, you know, well, Amazon, and then, you know, I always say, well, Zappos is great, but guess who bought Zappos? You know, and, you know, I think of the different companies I there’s this one little company that I do business with. It’s not do you would never even have heard of them unless you actually are a hobbyist in this little area. And you know what they do? They say, Hey, we received your order. Thank you very much. And it’s a video and we’re packing it right now. And they have a video camera over the shipping department’s table. 

And I can see my order actually being packaged and I thought oh, that’s pretty cool. I mean, you know, and it makes you feel like, okay, I’ve now got confidence that they’ve at least packed my order, they’re eventually going to send me the shipping information so I can track my order. But what’s really cool is this little video created this little connection that I have that’s emotional. I know who that person is, I see their face packing my order. I think that’s pretty cool when you can, if you can tie a little bit of the human touch into the digital experience, I think that’s pretty powerful.

Joris: Yeah, absolutely. And I love the idea because it’s so simple. And it’s one of the things that you mentioned to a lot of people as well, so apart from getting a great experience as a customer, it’s Yeah, it’s something worth mentioning to other people. So it’s good for word of mouth as well, that kind of, I mean, it’s a  little thing that can make a big difference. And I like the fact that you mentioned a human touch here as well, because what I feel sometimes as a customer, but also as a professional working a lot of ecommerce companies is that there’s a tendency to hide themselves sometimes companies. 

Especially ecommerce companies, and customers sometimes are seen, or customer service is seen as a burden. And I think like one of the latest additions to that as a chatbot. And personally, I’m not a big fan of chatbots. Because I prefer to talk to a real person, when I asked chatbot a question, they usually get it wrong. Or maybe it’s just me, I have the wrong questions. I don’t know. But. And that frustrates me and it feels like okay, you want my money, but you don’t even want to talk to me. I don’t know. What’s your take on that on chatbots for instance?

Shep: I don’t mind chatbots as long as they give me the information that I want to have, you know, quickly and easily without me having to repeat my question over and over again because the box not understanding. So it’s pretty simple. I was dealing with an online company. I wanted to buy a docking station for my computer. That basically allows me to set my laptop or notebook computer, whatever you want to call it, portable computer in this little like it clicks in and then that automatically connects me to my screen and my mouse and like keyboard and everything else. 

So my question was does that because it’s electric, and you have to, you know, there’s electric go into the docking station, would that docking station also charge my computer? Or do I still need to plug in a second plug after I dock the computer? You know? And so that was the question. And I was online in the little chatbot comes up and says Hey, can I help you? And I type in the question and the response comes back. Well, which computer are you interested in purchasing? And I said, I texted back, I’m not interested in purchasing a computer. I’m interested in the docking station. 

But I want to know, does the docking station charge the computer? When you back the computer? And the same question came back. Which computer would you like to buy? And it’s like, Are you interested in purchasing? And it’s like I’m not. And I did it three times and then got frustrated. And then I had an even worse experience is I called on the phone, where I was immediately asked for my account number, and I go I’m sure I have an account because I bought from you before, but where would I find that account number? And they said look on the back of your computer. 

If you bought the computer for Well, that’s not easy on the computer is docked right now. And if I do that, I’m going to lose my connection, etc, etc. And I said can you look it up using my phone number? And she said yes, in a frustrated voice. Well, so I gave her my phone number and she goes, this is your account number for future reference. And I go well, what do I need the account number for if you can look it up with my phone number? And then she said, Sir, what is it that you’re interested in purchasing? I told her I wanted the docking station. So they sent me over to the peripherals. And the salesperson picked up. And what do you think the first question the person asked me was?

Joris: What computer do you want to buy?

Shep: No. What is your account number? And I go? Why do I so I know we’re getting away from ecommerce. But this is the customer service in the ecommerce company that I was doing business with. And it’s like, Okay, you guys are hitting it wrong every single time. Or actually, you’re missing it. Not even getting a hit. Foul ball. Foul ball. Anyway, so you can see, you know, I’m acutely aware of all customer service situations. It’s part of what I do is part of my job. So but you asked me, you know, before, what companies are doing it right? Well, there’s so many companies that are out there doing it right. 

There’s big companies and little companies. And I know that if you can get I think the best companies offer really good self-service solutions. So if you can go online and easily get the information that you need, by a frequently asked question. And I’ll tell you, a company that’s doing it great is Salesforce. Now they’re a huge company. But this is something that any company can do. The reason I chose to do business with them initially was because they said if you’ve got a great question, don’t even go to Salesforce, go to YouTube and type in how do I do such and such on Salesforce? 

And you’re going to find dozens of videos on how to you know, do all kinds of things. Get your until they’ll take you step by step. Well, that’s a great way of doing a tutorial and given me great service. And of course, if you have a question, you can call Salesforce, and they did a pretty darn good job, you know, with that side of it. But I love the idea that they put control into my hands with the digital experience. And whether it’s a frequently asked question page or video tutorials or some other form of getting me through getting an answer to my problem. I think that’s pretty cool. And I think great companies will give you that self-service option if it’s appropriate to do so.

Joris: Yeah, absolutely. And that makes sense because you run into an issue, you want to solve it. Now you don’t want to wait for someone on the phone that may or may not help you. And if you have a self-service section, and it’s actually good, because there’s a lot of them that are not good as well. But uh, yeah. And  then that’s one frustration less. What are the common mistakes you see your clients make when it comes to customer service?

Common Mistakes Made In Customer Service

Shep: Well, I think that the first thing is it, they don’t make it a culture, they think it’s a department. So I guess I’m known for a line that I don’t think I invented this line. But I talked about or maybe I did, I don’t know, that customer service is not a department, it is a philosophy to be embraced by everybody within the company from, you know, the most recently hired lowest level position to the CEO of a company. 

And if it’s a solo entrepreneur, then you get to do it all. So that’s I think the first mistake is thinking that customer service is reactionary, it’s departmental, but it’s the philosophy we are taking care of others. And that goes beyond just when people need help because there’s a problem.

Joris: Right. And how, because that’s not easy to do, right? If let’s say you run a company and right now, customer service is a department but you are aware of the importance of it, and you want to make it a culture and part of the philosophy. Any ideas on how to make that happen?

Shep: Sure. I have Shep’s Six-Step Process for Creating the Customer-Focused Culture. So I’m going to give you all six steps, and hopefully a minute or less. Normally I’ll spend in a typical speech, if I’m up on a platform, talking to a group of people, I’ll take 20, 30 minutes to do this. And plus, we go into companies and spend the entire day working on really this service vision, and then talk about how we’re going to roll it out. But that’s number one. Leadership must define what the vision is. You know, I, the Ritz Carlton were ladies and gentlemen, serving Ladies and gentlemen, those are nine words. 

You know, there’s different companies that have these brand promises, or taglines. And that’s fine. But you need to create a vision for service specifically, and it’s one that doesn’t change. It stays with you. So create the vision number two communicate it to everybody, and communicate it often. Number three, train everybody to that and different people going to be trained in different ways. For example, somebody that might take a phone call, or deal with a chat directly with a customer is going to learn very specific customer service reactionary skills. 

But what about the employee who works in the warehouse that’s picking and packing the product and putting into the box. They need to understand their role in the service experience, because if they don’t put all of the items in the box, or they put it in improperly, and it gets damaged during shipping when the customer receives it, they’re not going to be happy. And whose fault was that? It comes from somebody in the warehouse that’s never ever going to see the face or hear the voice of the customer. 

So everybody has some type of experience that they create. Either for the internal customer that’s dependent upon them or the outside customer who buys the goods and services. So training is really important. Number four is that the leadership becomes the role model leadership and management must demonstrate to other employees how they want their customers to be treated. And they do that by treating their employees the way they want their customers to be treated. 

Number five is leadership’s job and management’s job is to keep everybody in alignment. If it’s a person, or a department or a group that’s not aligning themselves with the vision, they’ve got to step in and get this right. I once talked to a CEO and I said, what’s the most important job you have? And he said, defending the culture. I thought brilliant. And finally, number six is celebrate it when it works. To let everybody know they’re doing a great job.

Joris: Yeah. Alright, so yeah, those are great tips. I like the idea of being a role model and treating your employees as they should treat the clients. That’s actually a really good idea. 

Shep: We call that the Employee Golden Rule. And that is to do under the people you work with the way you want done unto the customer.

Joris: Nice, nice, that’s actually a really good one. Because that’s, I can see that work immediately. Your latest book is called Convenience Revolution. It’s about how convenience can actually set you apart from competition and you don’t need to compete on price if you can work on convenience, right? Can you tell a bit more about the Convenience Revolution?

The Six Principles of Convenience

Shep: Sure. Well, let’s make sure we talked about you don’t need to compete on price. I think you make price less relevant with the better service experience. And if you can create this experience, it’s so convenient and easy. You’re going to win the repeat business to that customer. So I’ll give you a couple of examples. First of all, I have it’s not really a story, but it’s an example of what defines convenience. And this one does show that price is definitely less relevant. So I’m at a hotel in Las Vegas at a conference. 

And there’s a mini bar in my hotel room. And the price of a can of Coca Cola is $10. $10 for a can of coke yet, you know and we all know if we go to the grocery store that’s less than $1. But I could walk 25 feet outside my room, there’s a soda machine selling actually not a 12 ounce can but a 20-ounce bottle of Coca Cola, not for the same price. But for a lot less $3. $3 versus $10. Yet, every morning, I see people who work at the hotel restocking the minibar that’s in the hotel rooms because people don’t care that it’s three times or more expensive. They only care that it was convenient and they didn’t have to step outside the room. 

Now, that’s an exaggeration. But let’s talk about Amazon for a moment. Amazon has always been recognized for great pricing. Matter of fact, when Amazon first came about when they were just a bookseller, they had the lowest prices for books and all the big bookstores, you know the retail stores or brick and mortar, were very worried that they couldn’t compete on price. Well, let me tell you what’s happened. Today companies compete on price. As a matter of fact, if you find an item on Amazon, they will tell you where you can buy it for less money. 

Because they’re that confident that the experience you have with Amazon is worth the extra few pennies or dollars that it’s going to cost to do business with them. So I’m not saying great service and great convenience, maybe price completely irrelevant. But it gives you an advantage that you don’t compete just on the lowest price. And by the way, anybody that’s loyal to you because of a low price, they’re only loyal to the price, not you as a company. And the first company that comes along that’s lower price, they’re going to move. 

So that’s the first premise. So there’s six principles of convenience. And again, I’m going to do these really quick. And this time, I do mean it less than a minute. The first is to simply reduce friction. And that’s all six of the principles. But some companies make it their entire value proposition. Number two is to create a self-service experience. Number three is to use technology to drive convenience which is what we do in ecommerce a lot. Number four is a subscription model. Again, that’s a great model than any type of business, especially the ecommerce world out there to just simply have recurring revenue. 

Number five is delivery, take it to the customer. And number six is access. Are you accessible to the customer? And most ecommerce sites are operating at 24 seven. So I would say that’s pretty darn accessible. So those are the six convenience principles. And of course, we can dive into each one a little deeper if you feel inclined to do so. But keep those in mind that you know a company like Amazon is in all six of these principles. You don’t have to do all six, you only have to do one and you have to do it really well. If that’s the one that’s important to your customer.

Joris: Okay, yeah, that was, could be my question. So one is enough if you’re just beating the competition, basically. Okay, cool. I mean, that’s just one book. You’ve written seven or eight books?

Shep: Seven books. Yep. That was the seventh one.

Joris: I’m a loser. I’ve only written one. 

Shep; Oh, that. No, no, no, no, you let me tell you have you written one, you’ve written one more than, like, a whole lot of be like 99% of the world?

Joris: Yeah that’s right. That’s right. Which one would you say is like the best place to search for people who want to learn more about the way you look at look at service?

Shep: Well, I think there is Gosh, I, you know, it’s like you’re asking me to choose my favorite child. But I think what I love about the convenience revolution is it really is a strategic way of looking at service. But before you get into this in the convenience, you better have your basics in place. So I wouldn’t go with the book Amaze Every Customer Every Time. And there is lots of information in there. 

So in every book I review my basic concepts in the first chapter or two. I talked about managing the moment of truth, creating a moment of magic, avoiding a moment of misery, getting rid of average. All of that is in every book that I do. But once you have the customer service part of it down, adding the level of convenience takes that service to an experience that customers love, and want to keep doing business with you as a result of that.

Joris: Okay, cool. So maybe a personal question, but what’s the best customer service you ever experienced personally?

Shep: Oh, wow. I have gotten so many great stories on customer service. But the one I’m most famous for telling is the one about a taxi cab driver. And I the best is if you go to my YouTube channel, or either one, And you’ll see on I believe it’s the top playlist. You’ll see Shep’s Cab Driver Story. Now, I was going to take it down and I did for a while. It’s a little vintage. It’s like 10 years old. It’s been up there. I have a more modern one, if you want to look at that, but the same story. 

But basically this guy, the amenities he provided, and the amenities were a newspaper that he picked up at hotels that had leftover newspapers that the guests didn’t take, he offered me a soda, okay? Well, what does that cost him about 25, 30 cents. And he said as I got to know him, I give somebody a soda, they give me like an extra $2 to $3 on the tip. I mean, that’s pretty good. Yeah. But the reason I like is that everybody can relate to a taxi cab or an Uber driver. And we know what good service looks like. And we always appreciate what you like a bottle of water, no charge? it’s compliments of me. 

You know, they’re going to give them a bigger tip, right? So the amenities in a taxi cab or an Uber, that’s really a metaphor for what little extra value can you provide your customers that they’ll go, Wow, this was a great experience, I want to do that again? And it could be, you know, just, you know, we’ve promised that it’s going to be shipped within 24 hours. That’s kind of an amenity. And, you know, we promise, you know, what little things that you don’t think of as amenities. And I’ll give you an example. 

You know, and I talked about Amazon already, but it seems like common sense to let the customer know you’ve received the order. And now each of these are part of the process. So an email goes out, an email goes out says orders been shipped. Here’s the tracking information. Another email, your order has been received, it was signed by this person, if you don’t have it, you know where to get it. And if you did get it, well, thank you again, for buying from us. So those are three little touchpoints that come as a result of email. And to me, that’s kind of an amenity, because it builds a connection. And in this case, it’s a connection of confidence. Right? 

So it’s as simple as I talk about these things and as common sense as they are. It’s not just that you’re doing them because well, this is the right thing to do. You need to understand what the customer’s thinking as a result of you doing them. And again, I use that word confidence. That’s what we’re trying to create. Oh, man, I know, when they’ve shipped, I feel good. So let me tell ya, you don’t receive that email, and you’ve done business with me five times. And on the fifth time you don’t receive that your items been shipped, something must be wrong. And you’re going to reach out to me. And maybe it was shipped and we sent the email and it went into your spam filter. 

Or maybe it’s like, thanks for bringing us you know this to our attention, we see there’s a problem. You know, but a good system. And in our industry, the ecommerce industry and the business that you know, everybody listening is in would be to alert you to make sure that all the sequences were followed through that there was an announcement that the order was received. There was an announcement that was shipped. There is an announcement that it was, you know, finally, you know, accepted by the person who purchased it. 

And there should be like, did all this happen? And if not a red flag should go up for you to proactively reach out to the customer to say, Hey, we’re looking and we noticed based on our tracking that you’ve never received your package. Can you confirm that? Because we are going to on our end, we’re going to find out why. I mean, that just makes natural sense to me. And it makes natural sense to your customer. But common sense is not always so common.

Joris: No, that’s true. That’s true. One of my personal pet peeves is like a new promise I will deliver. And I noticed so many companies and people do it the other way around.

Shep: They under-promise, or they over promise and under deliver. So I think the key to under-promising and over-delivering, by the way, I like that phrase, it’s an old phrase, it’s almost cliche, but here’s the thing, it’s so true. You set an expectation, one that your customer will accept, and then you figure out a way to exceed it. So if you say, you know, our normal shipping is three to five days, or you know, we use the post office, it’s three to five days, chances are it’s going to get there in three. 

That’s great, you know, now the post office is exceeding your expectations. Let’s take a look at something more analog. And let’s, I don’t know if you’ve ever been to a Disney theme park. But if you go to one of these theme parks, you stand in long lines, and they tell you how long the line will be. They’ll say it’s 45 minutes to the front of the line, you think Well, my kids going to love this ride. 

And while we’re walking through the line, they entertain you they’ve got you know, TV monitors, so you can watch TV and cartoons and the characters from Disney are interacting with. It’s very, even though they’re you’re waiting in line that’s a good experience. But here’s the cool thing. It’s never 45 minutes. It’s always like 30 minutes or 25 minutes because they just want to get you in on an expectation that they know that you’ll accept. And then they want to exceed it. So it’s not by accident. It’s by design.

Joris: Yeah. And that makes for a total different experience. Right? Yeah. Cool. Hey Shep, this has been great. And we could probably go on for hours and hours. But yeah, we’re running out of time. And I want to make sure people know how they can find you learn more about you. What’s the best place for people to connect with you?

Shep: Sure. Well, obviously there aren’t a lot of Shep Hykens in the world. So if you just go to HYKEN dot com, or you go you know, I think that’s the best way to reach out and you’ll learn all about me and subscribe to my newsletter. It’s free and it’s just an article every week that I write about customer service, there’s really very little promotion if any at all. And you know, I include a cartoon you can share it with your colleagues at work. It’s a great way to get to know a little bit more about service and what we do over here. 

Joris: Cool. Thank you so much for being here Shep It’s been great having you.

Shep: My pleasure. Thank you for having me Joris. Can’t wait for the next time.