When you’re starting to sell products online, you might wonder whether you should you sell on your own ecommerce or stick with more established “brand name” retail platforms that have a wide reach.
Ecommerce veteran Luke Peters says the big marketplaces are the way to go for several reasons. But he often recommends that his clients avoid the biggest one – Amazon – and goes into detail why it’s not a great fit for many startups.
We talk about how to make sure your product listings get ranked highly on these platforms, including strategies like influencer marketing – but not like you think.
We unpack all that in our talk, as well as…
- Why he likes products that are “difficult” to sell
- The top ecommerce sites that will probably surprise you
- 5+ ways to boost sales velocity
- Strategies for getting your products to page 1 on ecommerce sites
- The implementation of the still-underutilized method of Youtube influencer marketing
Mentioned in this episode:
Joris Bryon: Hey, this is Joris of the Ecommerce Excellence Podcast and today I’m super excited to talk to Luke Peters. Luke has started over five businesses and his current brand Newair Appliances is actually a leader in its category. They sell amazing wine coolers, beer coolers, and a lot of other unique products like portable ice makers and cooling fans.
He actually started Newair as a side hustle out of his garage and on top of that he’s also the host of the Page 1 Podcast and he runs an agency called retail bend. And that’s an agency that helps brands grow their sales on sites like Home Depot and Wayfair. So I’m sure this is going to be a very interesting episode. Luke, welcome to the podcast. Great to have you here.
Luke Peters: Thank you, Joris. Thanks for having me here and pleasure to be on your show.
Joris: Yeah, just to get started, I’d love for you to tell a bit about your background. How did you get started in ecommerce? And how did you get to this point?
How Luke Got Started in Ecommerce
Luke: Sure. So long story. I’ll give you the short version and then you can, you know, dive in if you need to. But basically, graduated school was a hazardous waste scientist for a couple years and then my brother was selling stuff online like computer parts and batteries around 2001. And that kind of piqued my interest. And looked into you know, online business and online sales around that time, which is right after the dot com bust so there’s a little bit of a vacuum and it was a nice opportunity.
And basically just you know, the quick version is just started the business by getting into more of like an HVAC category, so a lot of heating, ventilation, air conditioning, so like a lot of portable air conditioners and heaters. And at the time it was a nice category because online it was pretty wide open. And along the way, I learned SEO, sold direct to consumer. So for the first 10 years, it was, you know, a lot of things that are common in your podcast topics, you know, all the conversion optimization.
And actually, back, you know, if you remember, like 2002 to 2012, there wasn’t a Shopify. So it was, you know, we built her own platform to run multiple websites and multiple domains, you know. Depending on what the Google algorithms were doing at the time, we were able to rank really well. And did that for a long time. And then, you know, things changed around 2012. And I made a big change in my business and we pivoted into selling to the large retailers. So the focus then is selling to the larger retailers.
Most of our business is now doing that, but at the same time, we’ve just kind of reignited our newair.com website the last two or three years and now we’re growing our direct to consumer presence as well. So because we want to own the brand image, we have, you know, of course, a lot of experience doing that. So yeah, so we’re still doing direct to consumer. Main focus, though, is selling to larger retailers because you know, they have more eyeballs than were ever able to generate. And that’s what we’re doing with newair.com.
Joris: Okay. Yeah. Cool. So how did you come up with the idea to step into this category? Because it’s probably not that obvious to go into this category. Did you add, like, previous knowledge or?
Luke: Yeah, no, I didn’t have any knowledge. So I just, I basically because it was on the bottom of Yahoo, they used to publish the top 100 search terms on the bottom of their website that was just always there. And portable air conditioner was number three when I looked at one day, so it must have been a big heatwave over here. But I said, Well, this must be a good category to look into. And lo and behold, it was a good category back then.
Joris; Yeah, it can’t be easy to make a decision. Did you start your own brand right away, or did you start selling other people’s appliances first?
Luke: Yeah, good question. So at the beginning, other people’sm and then within two years, our own brand. So the Newair brand is pretty much from the beginning but you know, after about two years, after, kind of learned more about supply chain and importing and how to work with China factories. But at the beginning, you know, over here in the States is a company called Granger.
They’re a big kind of industrial supply company, I guess, and you know, they supply contractors. And so we literally just started selling stuff out of their catalog, I just called them and got kind of some preferred pricing, which wasn’t very preferred, but it was about a 10% discount. And then we just started listing their products online and that was at the very beginning.
And then, you know, we got more knowledgeable about how to work with distributors and eventually, we worked directly with about 400 brands before I made that big change. You know, probably and then kind of right around 2013, 14, 15 started kind of really cutting and stopped, basically eventually stopped 100% selling other people’s brands and then just focused on the Newair brand.
Joris: Okay, so that was a transition of a couple of years.
Luke; Yeah, it took a few years because, you know, we still had a substantial business when in 2013, we made the pivot to, you know, I guess we could be called wholesale. But selling our brand to Home Depot, to Lowes to Wayfair to Amazon. So we still had a substantial business, and then we’re changing the whole business to sell wholesale. So it kind of like slowly, we slowly kind of cannibalized that existing business.
You know, we would slowly just trim partners who were not the best. And at that time, I think it was a common model because, you know, we were fortunate to do it, but what I mean is, like, a lot of brands would be selling to many, many websites, but then they kind of realized why am I doing that? I might as well just sell to, you know, Amazon and a couple of other big guys. And, you know, so at the same time, we were, you know, getting, we were stopping selling those brands. It also, the trend was kind of going that direction as well.
Joris: Okay, yeah. So for people who want to start their own brands, do you have any advice? People who are now selling other people’s stuff and they want to transition to their own brand?
Luke: Yeah, well, that just depends on the category. But I would say the first thing to think about is you kind of have to now. You know, now the days are kind of gone of really being a reseller, in my opinion. I mean, you can still do it, it’s just harder because, you know, you have a lot of big players out there that are gaining. They’re gaining the search traffic like Amazon, and you know, Wayfair, and all these other guys.
So that’s the first thing is that you kind of have to build your own brand. And it still can be done, you know, selling direct to consumer on your website, but most people will also utilize a site like Amazon, so it’s just going to depend on the product category and what somebody’s strength is in. So I would say, you know, the quick advice would be that you have to think that way. So you have to build your brand.
And then probably, you know, find a niche category. And maybe sometimes go against the grain. You know, sometimes small products are just way too competitive. So, you know, go against the grain and maybe look at something that’s a little bit more difficult to work with. It might be harder to ship, it might be more of a challenge to sell. I kind of actually like those types of categories because if it’s small, easy to sell, never has returns, while there’s, you know, a million other people who are also doing that same thing. So those can be a challenge.
Joris: Yeah, that’s an interesting way of looking at it. Absolutely. And I get why it works actually. And I have less competition basically. So yeah, good idea. So with retail bank, your agency you help your clients get to page one of sites like Home Depot and Wayfair. First of all, when I looked on your site, you’re not really talking too much about Amazon, but rather about those other sites, whereas I would assume most people who want to sell to marketplaces they probably think of Amazon first. Why is that, that you don’t focus that much on Amazon?
Why Luke Steers Clear of Amazon
Luke: That’s a good question. Yeah. So nice, that’s a good observation, basically. Because look, I don’t need, I didn’t need to start another business. I’ve already got one so. I don’t know, it’s kind of, first of all, you know, it’s, I already don’t have enough time in the day and I, so I wanted to do something I enjoyed, which was, I didn’t want a company that was just like every other company. So when we go into a pitch, we’re helping people in an area that really nobody else is even offering this service. And it’s like, I like that kind of business.
Our audiences may be smaller, but at the same time, we can just be honest, and we can be straightforward, and there’s literally no other company doing it, so there’s no competition. And so we can just feel good about the offering that we’re providing and then not have to worry about being in a commoditized category. Now, what’s happened is we actually are helping people on their Amazon accounts because, you know, that just happens because they probably need help there. But that’s not part of our pitch.
And we have all you know, I’ve, we’ve worked with Amazon from the very, very beginning, so we know it very well. All sides of it. But yeah, that’s a good observation. But what we do is, and then we also work with influencer marketing. So we do some types of offerings, we have some offerings that they can’t really find anywhere else in the marketplace in the way that we do it.
Joris: Yeah. Okay. So why would you advise people to look at those other sites like a Home Depot and Wayfair on top of Amazon because I think like Amazon is the obvious choice for a lot of people, but what makes the other sites so interesting?
Luke: Yeah, well it depends on the category. So like, if you’re selling consumables or some products, they’re just not prevalent on those other sites. But on the flip side, you know, for like, if you’re thinking about your business and your business future, you don’t want to be 100% leveraged on Amazon if you can avoid it. So you want to have a little bit more diversification and that’s going to create a, you know, a more stable business for you.
And these other sites are Home Depot’s doing. They have an amazing online platform, they’re doing a great job. There’s less competition, that’s the other huge one for people to think about. So everybody’s on Amazon because Amazon makes it so easy. And these other sites actually, they don’t make it easy. And some of them make it actually hard to get on because they need so many approvals.
And remember, we’re talking about everybody from Lowes to Kohls to Target. All of these different big-box retailers, we call them R commerce for retailer commerce, and it’s kind of like Amazon and then you have all these other guys. And if you add all them up, it can definitely be a much larger percentage of your sales than Amazon would be. Because you know, there’s so many different options out there. So, you know, gives you that diversity, there’s less competition, and depending on product category, they could even be the market leaders, depending on your category.
Joris: Yeah, yeah. I like that way of looking at it because Amazon is like the only that everyone is mentioning, but you’re the first one I, first person I meet that says like look at the other ones as well. They can be interesting, especially if you had all of those up and it can have a big impact on your revenue.
Luke: Yeah, exactly. And it’s fun to help people. And we can help them not really in a tactical way, like we can do all those things, but we help them in a really strategic way and build out a plan and put them on a path, you know, for, to really improve their business, not just, you know, improve their monthly sales.
Because there’s so many things that, you know, because I mean, you’re an expert in ecommerce and you can just kind of compare what you know to somebody who thinks they might know a lot but they really don’t. And understanding how to improve, you know, maybe their email, you know, segmentations and click-throughs or their conversion rates, like you can have 10x improvements on their business. So that’s the same type of thing that we can do for companies on the other, you know, working with these big-box retailers.
Joris: Yeah. And that’s interesting. So, explain this a little bit, how have you approached that? Because you mentioned on your site, for instance, that you, well, that you get your clients on page one of those sites. How do you do that?
Landing Page 1 Results
Luke: Sure. So I mean, everything is, like, all of the algorithms are essentially the same for, every algorithm for search is essentially the same. Now they’re not, but what I mean by that is, they generally have, they’re going to have indicators that are going to help you rank that are going to be based on velocity of sale. So if your sales are higher, you’re going to beat the competition. If your conversion rate is higher, you’re going to beat the competition. If your ad to carts are higher, you’re going to beat the competition. Those are the main things that are being, and also if your margin for the retailer is higher.
So when you think about those things, there’s many, many ways to affect all of those points. And that’s how we think so we think strategically like that. I mean, you could do, it could be, as you know, from pointing advertising out a product to increase its conversions to create a self-fulfilling prophecy of staying on page one, because once it’s there, it’s going to be harder to move away from it because you’re going to be, by definition, if you’re, you know, the first ranked product, you’re going to be capturing the most sales.
See, so, there’s, those are the types of, we, you know, the strategy is not complicated, but at the same time, a lot of people aren’t thinking that direction. They’re just thinking I’m going to put a product up and, you know, how come I’m not ranking Home Depot. But Home Depot got, you know, 10 pages in that category. So they have to have a way to decide who’s going to rank. And then, of course, you know, there’s reviews.
So all of those things, what you do is you basically say, Okay, these are all the things that retailers are saying are important. How do I nudge up that signal to the retailer, you know? How do I increase conversion rate? How do I increase sales velocity? How do I increase how to carts? How do I increase reviews? So on and so forth all the way down the line. And then you can also map out all kinds of ways you can affect each and every one of those things. And then that’s how we will drive products up.
Joris: Okay, cool. So and then, in your opinion, if you had to pick one, what has the biggest impact?
Luke: Sales velocity is going to have the biggest impact pretty much for everybody.
Joris; Okay, so how can you influence that?
Luke: You can do that, well, first of all, you just have to get more eyeballs on the product. So let’s say there’s many ways you could drive external Facebook advertising to the product. You could drive influencer traffic to your product. You could drive, people sometimes will drive traffic from their own website, you know, to Amazon, for example, or you could do that telling people or whoever else. So it’s about driving traffic and then of course, working on conversion rates. So is the call to action correct? Is the product, you know is imagery and content. See, this is where it, there’s a lot of work that can go into content.
You know, are the images and videos done right? And the bullet points? And how is the consumer making that decision? And are we really selling the benefits to the customer? And is it a uniquely positioned product? And if not, can we position it uniquely so that when the customer looks at it, they see why they should purchase this one versus a competition, all of those things are going to factor, so it’s usually not just one thing. There’s, you know, all, you got to work on all of these different areas and have a team that really understands that. And that’s, you know, that’s kind of how we think about it.
Joris: Yeah, cool. Sounds like a lot of work but as long as it pays off, I think that it’s worth putting in the time and the work. Absolutely. So I, you also mentioned before something about influencer marketing. I know you have some experience with that. Can you tell us a bit more about what exactly you have done or do sometimes for clients in terms of influencer marketing?
Luke: Yeah, absolutely. Thanks for asking. So influencer marketing is obviously a big buzzword and some people are maybe even turned off, you know, because they think of the Kardashians or they, they’re just like, I can’t afford it. So, yeah, that’s the problem is that actually can create a, you know, it could have a negative connotation. But I would say, what we think about influencer marketing is we think about building your brand and dominating YouTube.
So we like YouTube influencers ahead of Instagram. We think for products, you know, especially our products, because our own Newair products are, you know, average order value is probably like 250 or something like that. So at $250 you know, people will think about that and research before they purchase it. So depending on the client we’re working with, if you know, we’re working with somebody right now and their ticket price is $300.
So you know, there’s some competition, and so customers are going to do research. So what I like about YouTube is it’s a longer format, the influencer has time to talk about the product and say why they enjoy it and they can kind of discover more features and functions of the product and go all the way through it, versus like a quick Instagram post. And it also, the biggest thing I like is that it’s evergreen.
So it’s like, you know, thinking of SEO and content and blogs, it’s like that. It’s going to stay, it’s going to live there for a long time. And depending on, you know, how you pick your keywords, you could dominate a category on YouTube, and then your results are going to show on Google too. So all those reasons we really like using YouTube influencers.
Joris: Yeah, I like the new ones, especially for high ticket items. I never thought of it but now that you’re saying it, whenever I am going to buy something, let’s say like $200 and up I research on YouTube as well. Then I look up reviews and that kind of stuff on YouTube. But I never realized I did that for high ticket items. But yeah, I can definitely see that working. Cool.
Luke: And it’s easier. You know, you don’t have to read a blog. You just have someone tell you.
Joris: Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. And show you the product and the, it depends on what you’re going to buy, of course, but oftentimes the higher ticket items, they have more features, and they have to be shown somehow that you know how it works exactly. So that’s the cool thing about YouTube. And how do you approach those influencers? What, how do you approach them? What do you give in return? How does that work?
Luke: Yeah, so what we’ve done is we’ve got a proprietary platform and a system that we’ve put in place over a couple of years. Because when I, a couple years ago, that was a big change we made for the newair.com site was, where basically every time we have a product launch with Newair and we’re launching, you know, I mean, this year alone will launch like 50 new SKUs. So every time product launch, we are going to do influencer marketing. That’s where we’re going to put our money because I like the fact that you know, we could do PR, and we could do a paid advertising, but I like influencer marketing because it’s long-term.
It builds a brand, it stays there forever. People are seeing it, you know, two, three years from now. So we, what we did is we built out a lot of systems internally, and we have a remote team that’s able to help with this. So we have a core team here in Cypress, California. So you know 50 people in a, we’re in a kind of a warehouse office building 115,000 square feet. So like a big building with 50 core people, but our influencer team, we can, they can be remote. And so we find that folks, they’re remote. We have systems and processes in place that, on how to properly negotiate with influencers.
And then over that time, we’ve built a lot of relationships with influencers. So when you do that, and you put it all together, we’re able to really do this in a cost-effective manner cheaper than anybody could do it themselves. And then also better is what we did is we built out these scorecards on how we rank the quality of the videos that are being produced, meaning, you know, if you don’t do that, and you don’t give them direction, now remember, they’re creative people that are the influencers. So they want to do it how they want to do it, which is better actually because you want to be authentic.
And, you know, if they don’t like it, you actually don’t want them to review it. It’s got to be authentic. But at the other end of the spectrum, there’s certain things we can request. Like, you know, we want to make sure we’re working with good influencers that are going to provide value. So we have a really cool scorecard that will give us direction and know that we are making a positive impact. So those are, put all those things together and those are kind of the key elements of our program.
Joris: Yeah, cool. So I did, just for people who want to try this out, what are we talking about in terms of budget that they have to keep in mind when they want to try this out?
Luke: Yeah. And it’s actually really inexpensive. For about $350 per SKU, you know, you’ll get one video or one engagement so yeah. It’s pretty inexpensive. And then there may be some fee to the influencer, but it just depends. You know, on a higher price product, usually they just want the product and they’re fine with it.
But if it’s a really inexpensive product then there may be, you know, a payment and all that’s disclosed, you know, with the different laws that are in place. So all of that’s disclosed, everybody knows that. You know, the viewers know it. But that’s why it’s the authenticity. Like if you work with a good influencer, they have an audience because the audience trusts them. And so, yeah, they have that integrity that they have to maintain.
Joris: Yeah, cool. And you mentioned that scorecard. What’s a scorecard exactly?
Luke: Yeah. Okay. So all kinds of things like, you know, making sure that the right keywords are in the title. Okay, so we want the video to be found by the right people. Making sure that the product is kind of discussed in the first minute, making sure that there’s a certain engagement level on the video when it’s done.
And also that there’s an engagement level in general with that influencer because, you know, you want to work with real influencers that earn their audiences, that didn’t pay for their audience. So you can understand them by looking at engagement level of their past the videos and also the video that they’re doing for you. And then there’s a bunch of other little proprietary metrics that we are tracking as well just to ensure that you know there’s value being delivered.
Joris: Okay. I think you mentioned also reviews as an important aspect and as an indicator basically on the sites to rank on page one. Is there anything you do specifically to get more reviews?
Luke: Absolutely. So we’re working with those influencers to get a review so if they like, actually and either way they will review the product cuz it’s good to get reviews even if it’s a three-star. So they’ll give an honest review of that product after they’ve used it. But the thing about that is now you can fast track those reviews. You know, you’re not waiting, you’re not listing a product on you know one of, you know, Home Depot, Wayfair, Amazon with zero reviews.
So you can get reviews, legitimate reviews, and that’s, you know, there’s other ways. There’s other areas you can send out products and get reviews. What we like about this better though is working with us as the client isn’t just sending a product for a review. They do get that, but then they’re also getting this additional video and even potentially an Instagram post. So they’re getting an additional creatives made about their product other than just to review, so it’s kind of an all in one solution.
Joris: Okay, yeah, that’s nice. Cool. Speaking in general terms about ecommerce, what do you believe are the keys to grow an ecommerce business in today’s environment? I mean, you have a lot of experience. You started out in 2001. So all of those years have changed dramatically. But today, what do you believe are the keys to grow in ecommerce today?
Luke: Yeah, I think so I’d say something a little against the grain and that is, you know, you have to do all these things, right, like conversion rate and email segmentation, and all of that and drive traffic. But the thing is, those are all table stakes. That’s like, anybody’s gonna have to do that. If you don’t do that you’re dead, you know.
Joris: So that’s bare minimum. Yeah.
Luke: You have to do that part. And a lot of people focus only on that. And I guess I would say that better, I mean, this may be obvious, but it’s not obvious to everybody, the most important thing is you got to have a unique product offering so that you’re not competing head to head with other companies and Amazon and everybody else. I mean, if you don’t have anything, if it’s not that unique, if you’re not giving the customer something different or better, and you can easily and clearly state that they’re not going to buy from you because you’re probably not going to ship as quick as Amazon.
And probably, your checkout is probably not going to be as easy as Amazon because everybody’s got their information already uploaded into it. So you just lost out on, you know, two huge reasons why someone’s not going to shop from you. And it’s hard to overcome those. And I think, in the future, you know, I think there is going to be an offering from Google, you know, you got Apple Pay. You have, there’s something’s going to happen where the payment side of that is going to be minimized a little bit whether, you know, I think it’s somewhat happening a little bit with Shopify and some of the, but it’s not all the way across.
You know, like the consumers are not, have not all bought in on one new payment platform. So Amazon’s got a couple of big advantages. And so the main thing is, you’re not going to win there. And you have to realize that and so you got to be able to provide a unique offering. And that’s where I think people should focus on.
Joris: Yeah, absolutely. I think it’s something that comes up quite often in interviews we do for the podcast, and also with other people and I talk with outside of the podcast. Having a good brand and a unique offering is what really, yeah, will make you win the game. If you just do like anyone else, and or, even worse, don’t even have your own products, it’s going to be harder and harder in the future to keep the business alive, I guess.
Luke: Yeah. And it’s hard for new entrepreneurs, you know? It’s not easy. So but then every business is hard. So they kind of have that part of it and just realize it’s going to grind at the beginning.
Joris; Yeah. If you look back at all those years, all that experience, if you were to start over again, is there something you would do differently?
Luke: Wow, that’s a good question. There’s like a million things I would do differently. I’d probably have better, probably just better inventory control early. You know, because a lot of times, I mean, there’s a lot of things look, I’m still learning, you know, and I hire people that are better. Luckily, now I can hire really, really good people that are, you know, a lot better at each of these individual areas than I am. But probably early on, I would probably have better financial controls and better inventory controls.
And I think those things are usually not the first things on an entrepreneur’s mind. They just want to like grow sales. But those are important things you learn later on. Those are really really important things. But you know, they’re just not as much fun. You know, when you’re building a business, you just want to sell and I like sales and I like marketing. And then, so yeah, it’s good if people are, you know, they’re in school, they’re taking that accounting class and being good and understanding accounting and why you should, as you’re growing a business, why you should understand that and the goals you can set is a really, really, really good thing to do.
I think the problem is if people are really focused on that then you know, they can become kind of stale and that’s why a lot of entrepreneurs don’t start from those backgrounds. You know, because those are very, in those backgrounds you have to be a little bit more cautious I think. So it’s a balance but I’m, but it’s at the same time a big miss probably on my part and a lot of people who started businesses. It’s, I’m sure some, an area that if they look back they wish they had better controls in place.
Joris: Yeah, and I get that. I mean, many entrepreneurs I know. And I’m going to know myself I mean, we’re focused on the sales part, marketing part the ideation and just moving forward as quickly as possible, but yeah, the rest seems a bit boring, maybe. But it’s super essential, and to have good controls in place for your business.
Luke: Yeah. And also just knowing the laws, you know? Because I read that, you know, I think you’re living in Spain, now you’re in Belgium. And yeah, you know, every country in every area is going to have laws. So you’re in, you know, in America, there’s different laws in California, then there’s going to be in Texas. And just, there’s usually those you don’t have to worry about as much until you’re bigger because there’s more ramifications as you grow. But just understanding those things and what limitations and how that you should think differently about building your team is also good for people to understand when they’re smaller and start now.
Joris: Yeah, absolutely. Maybe one last question about your podcast. So you run the Page 1 Podcast. I know it’s a tough question but let’s say our listeners want to check your podcast out. Which episode would you recommend they start with?
Luke: Oh, wow. That’s like choosing my favorite child. So listen, so I just, I would say this because it’s a fun episode. Just I have a lot of great episodes by the way, but Paul Cosaro, good friend and really good guy, he was early on probably like episode five or something like that right around that area. And but I just recorded one with, on a brand called Z Line and had a couple, had like three people from the marketing team, and it was, it’s a phenomenal company.
So I would say that the podcast is focused around consumer brands. So it’s pretty nice a topic, you know, and but I wanted to do it that way because I, because it kind of falls in line with what I’m doing with retail bands. So it’s just around consumer products and Z Line, that episode will be going live probably in December. And that will be, it just, there’s some fun and funny jokes, but also I learned a ton because the team that’s running their marketing is really amazing. So that’s where I think the audience will gain a lot of benefits from listening to that one. And the podcast is Page 1 with the number one. So Page 1 Podcast.
Joris: Alright, perfect. Hey, look, this has been absolutely great and very interesting. And we could probably go on for a long time now, but we’re running out of time. And before we go, I want to make sure that our listeners know where they can find you, learn more about you, connect with you. What’s the best way for them to go?
Luke: Sure. And thanks for having me on the podcast, Joris. It’s been really a pleasure and I enjoy your style. And listeners can find me on LinkedIn. I think that’s the easiest way. So just Luke Peters on LinkedIn or you can email me at [email protected]
Joris: Alright, perfect. Thanks so much for being here Luke. It’s been absolutely brilliant.
Luke: Take care. Thank you.