Joris Bryon | It’s All About the Data

We turn the tables on host Joris Byron in this episode. Business consultant Steve Gordon grills him on the unorthodox ways he helps his client increase revenues in ecommerce businesses.

For one, Joris says you don’t have to increase traffic. In fact, he says you can boost your profits with the traffic you have right now if you take certain steps. He outlines his data-driven approach that makes it possible.

Of course, it’s not just about collecting data. Joris shares the right ways to collect that data… and then evaluate it so that you truly understand your customers and can take the right actions to get them to buy… and more often.

Tune in to find out…

  • Why the technology you use is this last thing to worry about for attracting new customers
  • The only 4 levers you can use to grow revenues
  • What you must optimize beyond your website to have a real impact
  • The right and wrong ways to conduct A/B testing (many folks are wasting time and money)
  • And more

Listen now…

Mentioned in This Episode:

Episode Transcript:

Announcer: You’re listening to the E-commerce Excellence Podcast, with Joris Bryon.

Steve Gordon: Welcome to the E-Commerce Excellence Podcast. I am not your host, but my name is Steve Gordon, and I am here with your host. And today we’re actually going to turn the tables on Joris Bryon, your normal host for the podcast. And we’re going to talk with him about some of his perspectives on e-commerce, and on growing sales, and revenue, and profit in an e-commerce business. He’s got a tremendous amount of experience with it.

Steve Gordon: As you probably know, because you’ve listened to the podcast, Joris is the founder of Dexter Agency, a remote team of conversion optimization specialists. The agency serves high revenue e-commerce stores that are ready for continuous growth, and they’ve got nearly 1000 A/B tests, probably more than that at this point under his belt personally, team’s got many, many more. And he wrote a fantastic book, which I hope that we touch on a little bit here today called “Kill Your Conversion Killers”, which is really designed to help anyone with an online store really systematically analyze how to grow revenue without necessarily having to grow traffic. And so if you haven’t read it, you need to go to Amazon, you need to get a copy right now and read that and go through the method.

Steve Gordon: In addition to keeping his hands in all the day-to-day operations with his client projects, he also lectures at the University College in Ghent in Belgium, and just I’ve had the opportunity to spend a lot of time with Joris over the last year or so. And I have to tell you, there is probably no deeper thinker when it comes to really studying conversion as it applies to e-commerce. So I’m excited, Joris, that you’re here today, that I get to turn the tables on you. So welcome to the podcast.

Joris Bryon: Thanks Steve. And thanks for that great introduction. It’s actually fun to be at the other end of the table here.

Steve Gordon: Absolutely. So I know you’ve got lots of regular listeners, but normally you’re focused on really shining the light on what your guests do. Now that you’re the guest, it’d be great if you give us a little bit of background. So how did you get started in e-commerce? What got you to this stage of your career?

Joris Bryon: Yeah, well, it’s actually been a long road until I started in conversion optimization and e-commerce specifically. I think I graduated university, I believe that was in 2001, 2002, and like the first 10 years I worked in a typical advertising agencies back in the time. And first it was a fun job, but at the end I kind of got fed up with it. There was a lot of pointless discussions, like can you make the logo bigger? Can you make it blue? Can you make it red? Can you put it there? Can you do this, can you do that? And nothing was really backed up by anything, it was just like gut feeling, and personal preferences. And yeah, after 10 years or so I got fed up with it. And my wife and I, we decided to take a long break and travel. And we traveled for four months through Australia, southeast Asia, and the problem was when I got back, yeah, had no money on the bank left.

Joris Bryon: So I had to look for a job and I still hadn’t really figured out what I really wanted to do. So the easy choice was to go back to an ad agency. And of course that’s a stupid move, and it only lasted about a year or so. And during that year I remember me driving to that agency and every single day I had another business idea while I was driving to work. And that was a clear sign that I just didn’t want to stay in that nine to five rat race, and especially not an ad agency, and I wanted to start my own thing. But I didn’t really know what I wanted to do. And after a year of doing that and coming up with different ideas every single day, me and my wife, we decided to start a video production company. Now, I didn’t know a lot about video production at the time. And it’s not really… well in hindsight I should have known, but after about a year, year and a half, we pulled the plug. I mean it was hard to make it work and we were running out of money.

Joris Bryon: But at the last few months of that business, I almost accidentally, I started to learn more about digital marketing, and I just wanted to start a blog and see how it went. And then there was like, oh, okay, but how do we get traffic to blog and, but I don’t have any money so I should do SEO. And then I started to learn more about SEO, and I kind of fell in love with digital marketing. And so when I finally decided to pull the plug out of the picture production company, I felt like, okay, I want to do more of this. I want to become really good at this digital marketing thing.

Joris Bryon: So the logical next step was trying to find a job with a digital marketing agency, and I got lucky because I got hired by… well, in my eyes they’re still the best digital marketing agency in Belgium. And they were really good that at this digital marketing thing, and I learned a lot there. But back at the time they were still very much focused on traffic, and at some point I just encountered CRO, and that was at a conference, at a conference in London. And that was when I first discovered CRO and I fell in love with it. And I discovered that, I tried to learn everything I could about CRO just in my spare time. And after a while I understood that in the agency that I was working, I mean they were really good, but their clients were not ready for CRO yet.

Joris Bryon: So I decided to venture out on my own and start my CRO consultancy for e-commerce. And to be honest at the beginning I really didn’t have the intention to evolve into an agency. It was just me and I was happy to do what I loved, but yeah, at some point you get too much clients, and you have to make a decision. And either you refuse clients or you decide to grow, and grow it into an agency. So I did that. I decided to transition to an agency and yeah, step-by-step from just focusing on the conversion rate optimization part of things, we evolved to being specialized in working with the traffic that our clients already have.

Joris Bryon: So that’s not just conversion optimization, but it’s a bunch more of things. And basically, that’s what we do now. We work with the traffic that our clients already have, and we focus on stuff that clients tend to forget about, but that can make them a lot of money. And I’ve been doing this now for, I don’t know, sometimes I forget. I forget, but I think it’s about five years now. Yeah. And learned a bunch. And I, last year, as you mentioned in the intro as well, I’ve written a book about it just to share all that knowledge that I had, and really make it pragmatic and step-by-step. Because there’s also a lot of high level theoretical stuff out there, but that usually isn’t very useful for most of the people. And that’s why I decided to write a book as well.

Joris Bryon: So yeah, that’s how I got started. I mean, I started my career back in 2001 or 2002, so a lot of things have happened, but I can say that I’ve finally found my calling now, and this is what I really enjoy doing.

Steve Gordon: Wow, you know, that story just resonates so much with me. I’ve interviewed on my own podcast 130 or close to that entrepreneurs. And the one commonality among them all is that we sort of all take this zigzag approach to finding where we really can add value and where we have a passion for things. And it sounds like you very much went through that as you’ve sort of found your way into digital marketing, and then found the right spot within digital marketing where you could really leverage your expertise. So-

Joris Bryon: Yeah, certainly. And yeah, just let me say one thing about that. I started out in advertising agencies where, as I mentioned, there’s a lot about make it blue, make it bigger, make it smaller, put it there for them. And I hated those kind of discussions, and they could go on for days sometimes. And the beauty of what I do now is that whenever someone says like, “Hey, can you make it bigger?” We’re like, “Oh, we’re going to test it.” And it’s all data driven, so there’s no discussion anymore about the personal gut feeling and opinions. It’s all about data-driven and stuff. So that’s why I feel like somehow, I got in that place and it counterbalances perfectly my bad experiences from the beginning of my career. Yeah.

Steve Gordon: Well that’s what I love about your approach. And I know you talk a lot about that in the book, about moving from the world of opinions, where whoever has the most power in the agency, or if it’s an internal team, on the internal team, they sort of influence the direction of some design decisions. And your approach is to really say, “No, let’s come up with what we think all the hypothesis should be, and then we’re going to test and then we’re going to let the data decide for us.” And that simplifies things I think tremendously.

Steve Gordon: And as you know, it was proven by your client results that it delivers greater results and delivers them more quickly, and more predictably as well. So let’s talk a little bit about e-commerce. You’ve worked with quite a number of large e-commerce businesses and I’d really like to hear from you what you believe are the two or three keys to growing an e-commerce business in today’s environment.

Joris Bryon: Right, yeah. So, I just typically, I don’t run my own e-commerce. But I’ve talked to so many e-commerce owners and I’ve heard a lot from their discussion… well, those discussions. And basically, where they are struggling and what’s working well for them and what’s not. And even though we’re focused on one part of an e-commerce business, and we’re working with traffic they already have, there’s a lot more to running any e-commerce business than that. And then I do know, well I have learned a lot about what’s working and what’s not in general. And I think one of the first things that many e-commerce owners struggle with is they get distracted, and there’s people that will call it the shiny object syndrome. I sometimes call it tactical nightmare syndrome. And to be honest, it’s probably not just e-commerce owners, it’s business owners in general.

Joris Bryon: I have to say, I suffered from it as well. You read something on a blog and you’re like, “Oh, I should do this.” Then you listen to podcasts and you’re like, “Oh, I should do this.” And you watch a YouTube video and you’re like, “Oh, I should do this.” And you jump from one thing to another and you never really finish it, and you’re just trying tactics and you get distracted from the bigger picture, and you don’t take a step back, and look at things, and make the right decisions. And that’s one of the reasons why I don’t read any blog posts anymore, because they make me restless. And I’m really like, “Okay, I should try this.” And I know it’s not good for me or my business. And I think that’s one of the things that a lot of e-commerce owners or, well, business owners in general, struggle with.

Joris Bryon: And maybe the second thing. So if you don’t get distracted, I think that’s key to grow your e-commerce, and just try to keep the bigger picture. And a second key to grow an e-commerce business, I would say customer centricity. And basically it’s just listening to your customers, and respecting them, and caring about them. It’s really, really, really understanding them and their needs, but also how do you want to use your site, and what do they want to buy from you? What do they expect from you in terms of service? What do they like about you? What do they dislike about you?

Joris Bryon: And I think it’s, it’s super important to talk to those customers, and especially in the beginning, because in the beginning you may need to pivot something. And if you’re all just about moving boxes, and you don’t really care about your customers, I think it’s going to be tough. So all of the successful e-commerce entrepreneurs I’ve spoken with, they cared a lot about their customers, and they give great customer service, and they really care about them. So I think that’s, that’s one of the commonalities I know I’ve seen in all successful e-commerce businesses.

Joris Bryon: Another one if you really want to grow your e-commerce, I think, is don’t get too hung up on traffic. And I see a lot of people struggling with that because if you just start out and you have your e-commerce, you just push it live, and the first thing you’re going to do is probably have Google shopping ads, and they convert pretty well. So they’re like, “Oh, this is going great,” and you expand to Google’s tech stats and you’re like, “Okay, these are good.” And you try to… well, you’re going to grow pretty quickly in the beginning because you’re tapping into traffic that is highly relevant, that is ready to buy. But at some points you kind of used up all of that traffic with a buying intent at that point.

Joris Bryon: And then it’s becoming really difficult to keep growing at the same pace. And most people will start struggling and at some point they will plateau. And that’s all because they think they can keep growing with just adding traffic to their site, and I mean, there’s only so much traffic that is going to be relevant. If you buy search ads, for instance, and you target to… let’s say you sell dishwashers, and you target dishwasher buy online, or buy dishwasher, dishwasher shop. Those are like keywords that are going to be very relevant. But if you start targeting keywords that are general, like dishwasher, just the word dishwasher, then, well it’s going to be tough, right? Those people don’t always have the same intent, and it’s going to be hard to convert those.

Joris Bryon: So it’s gonna be hard to keep growing with adding traffic, because there’s only so much traffic that is going to be relevant for you at that point. And you need to try and find ways to go around, and I think the best way to do that is by focusing on the customer life cycle, and really, again, try to understand why they are they on your site, and why do they buy from you? Why don’t they buy from you? And most people, when they start out, they just kind of dump traffic on a site and they hope that it’s going to work. But usually I compare it with like, you see a beautiful woman, a beautiful man, and you walk up to them, and you ask them to marry you.

Joris Bryon: That’s not gonna work, right? It’s way too direct, you need some time, you need to meet that person, get to know him or her. Date for a while maybe, and from that date maybe it can evolve into a relationship, and you need to have that time. And so if you have traffic to your site, I mean the ones that have high buying intent, yes, you can probably convert them. But there’s a whole bunch more that are not ready to buy yet, and you have to warm them up until the point that they are ready to buy. And then you have to try to keep them on board and sell again to them. And it’s all about understanding that customer life cycle, and making sure that you have the mechanisms in place to get the most out of it.

Joris Bryon: So I’d say those are probably your keys to grow in e-commerce. So first of all, don’t really get distracted, try to keep your focus. Second, listening to your customers. And then the third one is don’t just think in terms of traffic, but think in terms of the customer life cycle.

Steve Gordon: Well, you know, as you’re talking about that, the first two are I think are pretty universal to business, right? You’ve got to care about your customers if you want them to keep coming back, and boy it is easy to get distracted, but if you can avoid that and stay focused, you’ll make more progress and make it more quickly. But the third one is interesting to me because it’s unique, I think, to the e-commerce businesses because they exist online. They have to get traffic in some way. The first and obvious thing that you would turn to, to get growth would be just to get more eyeballs. But I would imagine that as the ad platforms have matured, and costs have tended to go up, that it’s harder and harder to make more traffic if that’s the main strategy, harder and harder to make that profitable. Is that what you’re seeing?

Joris Bryon: Yeah, absolutely. So again, the traffic that has that high buying intent, yes, you can probably still make that work, but if you have to expand it to traffic that is a little less warm, then it’s going to cost you a lot of money and the chance of converting him is going to be pretty low. And if you don’t have mechanisms in place to try and make them convert in the longer run, it’s going to be really hard. And competition is increasing, cost per clicks is going up all the time, and you have to have everything in place so that you can make the most out of every single visitor to your site.

Steve Gordon: So you’ve got a method for approaching this, and you call it the DEXTER Method. Can you kind of walk us through the method, how you, if you’re approaching a new client and they’ve come to you and said, “Well our growth is maybe sort of plateaued. We’re having trouble making the next large batch of traffic that we’re driving convert as well as what we’d had in the past, and it’s not as profitable.” How do you begin to analyze that business to look for opportunities?

Joris Bryon: Yeah, so we use our framework DEXTER Method, and DEXTER stands for a couple of words. So the first step, the D, is data. So we really look into the data, and we look at it differently than most digital marketing agencies. I mean, most of them, they still look at the traffic side of things and yeah, we’ll have a look there as well. But I mean that’s not really that special. We’ll look into, what are people doing on your side? Where are they dropping off? Why are they dropping off? How much money are you losing on certain pages? Because that’s an interesting one as well. If you know that you’re losing a lot more money on a certain page, or a certain step in a process, then you’re going to want to focus on that page sooner rather than later.

Joris Bryon: So it helps you prioritize things and it’s about looking at, okay, what have you done in terms of increasing your average order value? What does your purchase frequency look like? How do you get people back to your site? How do you try to optimize that relationship that you have with your customers? So we look at a whole bunch of things and that’s not just Google analytics. Of course, Google analytics is an important step, but the problem with Google analytics is that most people still think that they can answer a why question with Google analytics, and typically you can’t. I mean Google analytics will say things like, okay, you’re losing a lot of people here on this particular page. And then the next logical question would be why? And you’re not going to find the answer in Google analytics. You need auto research minutes for that.

Joris Bryon: And if you try to answer the why question just like that, you’re going to just speculate and invent possible reasons. No. You have to know what’s happening. So you have to look at other things and see what’s happening. So you can do surveys, you can look at the live chat transcripts, you can talk to your customers, you could look at click maps, scroll maps. There’s a whole bunch of things that you can do, but you have to understand what’s happening there. So that’s what the D stands for, is really understanding what’s happening. And I think it’s a really important step and it takes some time, sure, but you’re going to make up for that time really quickly afterwards because…

Joris Bryon: There’s been research about this that said that if you don’t do any research… So let’s say you start conversion optimization and you just start A/B testing. A/B testing based on a gut feeling, some ideas that you have, random ideas. Now there’s been research about this and that stated that one out of seven tests will generate a significant result if you just start random testing. Now if you do that, it’s six test. That means that six out of seven tests will be equal. I mean your A version, your B version, there’s not going to be a significant difference. And then the seventh test, there’s going to be a significant difference, but it could also be a significant loser.

Joris Bryon: Now when you follow a structured process, like the DEXTER Method, where you start with the data, what happens is what we see on average for our clients on average who seek out one of three tests, or a significant winner. And that’s an enormous difference, because the time that you spend up front doing some research, you’re going make up for that in one or two months because you find the winners a lot quicker. And so that’s why the data are so important.

Joris Bryon: Now the second step in the DEXTER Method, the EX in DEXTER, stands for execute. So there’s always stuff that comes out of a research phase that you can just go and execute. You don’t have to test it. Let’s say you find that your site is slow, or you don’t have a card amendment marketing automation in place, or you’re not even sending out newsletters, or whatever, then you just have to do that. Start doing it.

Joris Bryon: And then there’s going to be the third step in the DEXTER Method is the T, and that stands for tests. So there’s always a bunch of stuff that you want to test, and that’s stuff that you want to test on your site, but it’s also stuff that you want to test in your marketing automations, and your newsletters and so on. So it is about trying to improve their performance. It’s about getting insights and learnings as well. And one of the important things that a lot of people overlook in that area is A/B testing.

Joris Bryon: Now, most people think of A/B testing, it’s about finding winners. And I try, I like to do another round and say it’s about not implementing losers. I may explain that with an example. We have a client that signed up with us, I think a year and a half, two years ago, an American e-commerce company and they didn’t have one of those USP bars, or benefits bars or whatever you want to call them, on top of their site. So what it says is, typically you’d say something like free shipping, free 30 day returns, that kind of stuff with it and an icon next to it.

Joris Bryon: Now, they had spoken to another agency, and another agency had said, “Yeah, you should just go ahead and implement it. It’s a no brainer, it’s a best practice.” And I was reluctant to do that, because the client asked us, and said, “I would really want to test it and it’s a great client,” and they said like, “Okay, you’re the expert. Just do your thing. If you think we should test it, we’ll test it.” And we tested it and it had a 99 point, was it 3% or 8% probability of losing a million dollars a year. And now, at the time they were doing, I believe eight or nine million dollars a year, and they would’ve lost a million dollars a year by just implementing that benefits bar. And it’s a lot of money, and I know that a lot of people have doubt sometimes. Like how can it be so much?

Joris Bryon: Well, totally different discussion. I can, we should probably dedicate another episode to that. But the thing is that had they gone ahead and implemented that benefits bar, they would have lost a lot of money. And a lot of people underestimate the importance of that, as well, because we all make changes to our sites on a regular basis, right. And we don’t even know if it’s going to work, but then we make a change and we’re convinced that it’s going work and we don’t really look at the data. Or maybe you see 0.2% drop and you think like, “Oh, it’s seasonality,” or, “That campaign will probably have underperformed.” And you don’t even, you’re not even aware of the fact that it is due to change that you made to the site. So, that’s also one of the reasons that testing is super important.

Joris Bryon: Now, the next step in the DEXTER Method, the last E of DEXTER stands for evaluate. And so you’re going to look at the data, you’re going to understand what’s happening. You’re going to get better insights into your customers. And based on that evaluation, you can go to R, sort of repeat step, and you can repeat the entire cycle. Based on an A/B test, you can find something that you can maybe just execute, or you can come up with a follow-up test idea. Because sometimes, well, oftentimes, when you have a winner, a lot of companies stop there. They’re like, “Oh yeah, we found a winner.” Well usually you can find another winner based on what you’ve learned from the first winner, because you know that your hypothesis is correct. And then you can say like, “Hey, what else can we do to make it even better?”

Joris Bryon: And so that’s why it’s a cyclical process. You learn from what you do, and that fine tunes the rest of… well, your next tests basically. So yeah, that’s, in a nutshell, that’s what the DEXTER Method is about.

Steve Gordon: Well it’s a fantastic and very systematic approach to incrementally improving an e-commerce business over time. And it’s not just about the website. So you talked about really all of the customer facing communication, and that experience all the way through. All of that is important. And I think a lot of people get so focused on the website as the only part of the… the only selling tool. And really there’s email marketing, there’s all kinds of moving parts in there.

Steve Gordon: And the fact that you look at all of that, you take data from all of it, to me gives a much more holistic approach, and a more solid approach to what you’re doing. So Joris, as you’ve worked with e-commerce business owners, entrepreneurs, I know you’ve seen some that have been really, really successful, you’ve seen others that sort of struggle and have trouble getting traction. Have you noticed anything along the way? What tends to differentiate the ones that are very successful from the ones that maybe struggle a little bit?

Joris Bryon: Yeah, so typically the ones that reach out to us, they’re already at a stage where they have encountered some form of success. But what I notice a lot, I’m on a lot of Facebook groups, and forums, and that kind of stuff, and there I see a lot of struggling e-commerce entrepreneurs. And apart from what I mentioned before, like getting distracted and not really listening to customers, or just focusing on traffic and not on this life cycle of the customer. I get the feeling that a lot of them in those groups, in those forums, have started their e-commerce for the wrong reason. And one of the things that I see coming back is that they think it’s going to be easy and it’s not. I mean, it is really hard work, competition is fierce, and if you enter the game now you’re already late.

Joris Bryon: So it’s gonna be really hard to establish your place in your market. And typically in those forums there’s a lot of drop shipping. I don’t believe in drop shipping to be honest. Not the way you read it in those forums, because it’s not customer centric. I mean, what you do there is you try to sell, sell, sell and once it’s sold then your customer, well you leave them hanging it for sometimes three to four weeks if you ship it from China. So it is, again, that’s the mentality of, “This is easy stuff. I can just get started.” And it is easy to get started. I mean with Shopify you can set up a shop in probably one or two days, and you can do it all yourself, and there’s a bunch of plugins and if not, you cannot make it work with your plugins, there’s a lot of developers out there that can help you, and Shopify is a great platform, but that’s not the point I’m trying to make.

Joris Bryon: That part is easy, but if you think that it’s going to be easy to find the right customers, listen to them, respect their life cycle and stand out from the crowd as well, try to claim your spot in your market, the branding part… There’s so many moving parts on it. To be honest, I think it’s oftentimes, e-commerce is underrated. I think it’s one of the hardest things to do online. So I think that’s why I, where I see a lot of people struggle because they underestimate it.

Joris Bryon: And also, and I think so somewhat related to it, a lot of those people that I see struggling in those groups, it is because if they don’t really have passion for the product, or their niche, and maybe passion sometimes is a little bit overrated, but I think at least you should do something that you’re interested in. Something that you care about, something that you’re familiar with, or a niche that you understand because you can relate to them or you even belong to that niche. You have to have some affinity with what you’re doing. And if you think like, “Oh, I’m just going to move boxes, I’m going to sell this because I think there’s a niche there and I’m going to sell it. I’m going to just drop ship from China and that’s it,” you’re not going to be in the game for a long time.

Joris Bryon: I guess you need to have some affinity with what you’re doing. So, and yeah, if it’s going to be your business for a long time, then you might as well do it in a way that you’ll enjoy, right?

Steve Gordon: Yeah, absolutely. It’s so interesting, I see this across all businesses. I think it’s very easy as an entrepreneur to be in the middle of the struggle of building your business, whatever business it is. And you look over at another industry, or you look at a friend’s business or something and you go, “Oh, it’d be so much easier if I were over there.”

Joris Bryon: Yeah.

Steve Gordon: But the problem with that is you don’t see what’s below the surface, and all of the work, and effort, and the difficulty that’s over there. I don’t believe that there is an easy business, because fundamentally you’re trying to unlock what motivates a human being to want something, and deliver that in a way where you’ve got relationship, and all these other things. It’s fundamentally a human problem, not a technology problem. And I think you illustrated that perfectly by saying, look, all the tools are easy, but you’ve got to figure out all of these other things, which really all come down to understanding the human beings that you’re selling to, and what’s motivating them to want to buy the thing that you’re selling.

Steve Gordon: And that’s hard work, no matter what you’re doing. It’s hard work to understand that, you know, and it’s messy work that a lot of people don’t want to do. So I think that’s a fantastic point. Before we kind of wrap things up, I wonder if there’s any particular advice, like if you had one thing that you’d want to share with an e-commerce entrepreneur who’s listening to this that is looking to get growth going. You know, maybe they’ve had some success up to this point, but they want to extend it further. What would be that piece of advice that you’d give them?

Joris Bryon: I think, no surprise here, don’t just focus on traffic. A lot of people get stuck in a traffic mindset because it helped them to grow to a certain point, and somehow they think that’s also how they’re going to keep growing, just by the new traffic, new traffic, new traffic. But what I explained on our site as well, for instance, is that basically, if you want to grow your revenue, there’s only four levers, and traffic is just one of those levers. And you should not overlook those other three levers and those other three levers are average order values. So if you can grow your average order value from $20 to $30, yeah, that’s going to make you a lot more money, right? But it’s also about conversion rate of course, and about purchase frequency. So if you can sell to the same person more than just once, that’s going to help you as well. And basically the formula for growing your e-commerce is pretty simple. Your revenue equals your traffic, times conversion rate, times average order value, times purchase frequency.

Joris Bryon: And everyone just focuses on the traffic board alone, and sometimes it frustrates me, because I see the power of those other three levers, and I try to explain it. And somehow, a lot of people, they fall back into an old habit of, “Oh, we need more traffic.” No, you don’t need more traffic, you need more revenue. And there’s a lot of ways to get there and easier ways to get there than just the traffic a side of things. So I would say, try to get unstuck out of that mindset, that I need traffic mindset, but things like, “Okay, do I need traffic or do I need more revenue?” Oh, you need more revenue. And that’s what it’s all about.

Steve Gordon: Yeah, absolutely. It’s well said. I know you’ve got a couple of resources for folks if they want to go deeper into the DEXTER Method, and your approach to looking at those four different levers, and really maximizing them. I know you’ve got a video that you’ve got online at So folks listening, you can go there, and I think it’s about a 30 minute video and Joris walks you through all of the different components of the DEXTER Method, and through the four levers that he just touched on, to get growth in revenue in an e-commerce business. And different ways to think about approaching those, so that’s really valuable.

Steve Gordon: Again, that’s at And Joris, of course, the book. The DEXTER Method book, which they can find on Amazon if they search for DEXTER Method on Amazon, and also on your website,

Joris Bryon: Right, yeah. I think the book is a great way to get started. Even if you want to do this yourself, even if you have a low traffic site and you think like, “Oh, I don’t have enough traffic to A/B test.” Well, there’s a bunch of things in there that you can use to grow your revenue by just optimizing for conversions, even if you have a low traffic store. So that’s a great way to get started if you want to do it yourself. If you don’t have the time to read a book, as you said, Steve, I think is probably the best way to learn a bit more about the framework.

Steve Gordon: Perfect. And if somebody is listening to this and they say, “You know, we just need help. We need somebody to come in and help us,” I know you work with e-commerce businesses on this, and implement for them. What’s the best way for them to get in touch with you?

Joris Bryon: Yeah, so I think the best way to get in touch with me is just send me an email, it’s Joris, that’s J-O-R-I-S, Or you can go to and click on contact us and fill it out there, or you can get in touch with me on LinkedIn. So yeah, that’s just my name on LinkedIn and that’s it. So yeah, those are the best ways to get in touch with me.

Steve Gordon: Very good. Well, Joris, thanks for sharing so much wisdom with us today. Folks, if you’re listening, go check out those resources and tune into the next episode of E-commerce Excellence.

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