Jason Goldberg | Mobile eCommerce Strategies for 2020

Jason Goldberg has quite a resume: a member of the National Retail Federation’s digital advisory board, Guest lecturer at the Kellogg School of Management at Northwestern University, chief eCommerce strategy officer at Publicis Group, a marketing agency holding company with hundreds of agencies, and much more.

But his roots are in eCommerce. In fact, he was one of the pioneers in this industry and continues to innovate top strategies used by online retailers and marketers today. 

As a thought leader, he keeps an eye on all things digital marketing, media, and more. 

He says a lot has changed over the years in eCommerce… but a lot has stayed the same too… as far as what attracts customers and what makes them buy, as well as how to make sure your online business scales up and increases profits in a sustainable way.

We talk about that, as well as…

  • The biggest challenge to eCommerce conversions today – and how to overcome them
  • What the “mobile gap” is and a strategy to bridge it
  • How the fields in your checkout process could be sabotaging conversions
  • The first two ways to improve your site to boost conversions
  • And more

Listen now…

Mentioned in this episode:

Episode Transcript:

Joris Bryon: Hey, this is Joris of the eCommerce Excellence podcast. And today I’m really excited and honored as well to talk to Jason Goldberg. He’s probably the guest with the most impressive bio so far and I’m going to read it to you. It’s pretty impressive and long.

Jason “retail geek” Goldberg. He’s the chief commerce strategy officer at Premises communications. He is a fourth-generation retailer and launched his first ecommerce sites for Blockbuster Entertainment back in the days in 1995. He’s worked with over 100 clients on the Internet of 500 and he’s been responsible for billions of dollars in online revenues and his Twitter feed at retail geek check it out. He’s one of the most followed ecommerce subject matter experts on the web, and he’s also Executive Chairman of the Board of Directors of Shop.org and the National Retail Federation digital advisory board. He has served even as an expert witness in federal court on ecommerce and he’s also a guest lecturer on retail and ecommerce at the Kellogg School of Management for Northwestern University. He has his own podcast as well called the Jason Scott show. And he’s been voted one of retails top global influencers by event and that’s even five consecutive years. And yeah, well that’s a, as I said, a very impressive bio. And so I’m sure it’s going to be very interesting episode.

Jason, welcome to the podcast. super happy to have you here. 

Jason Goldberg: Thanks very much. Joris, the honor is entirely mine. But I I didn’t realize you were going to read that bio that my mom apparently wrote for me.

Joris: She’s a big fan and you can tell. She’s really yeah, she’s really proud of you. But it’s impressive. And I was I was reading your bio before it was like, can I make it shorter but no, that wouldn’t do you justice. So I left it all and it’s impressive but yeah I already told a bunch but you and I, of course, but you have your story so where did you come from in your career? How did you get started eCommerce? How did it all go? And how did you end up doing what you do right now?

Jason: Yeah, well, I suspect like most people, mostly by accident. So, you know, my family had been in retail for a long time. Just out of college, I got a job with a relatively unknown entrepreneurial business in the US. At the time that was called Blockbuster Entertainment. It ultimately became a very large enterprise. And of course, today it’s a joke about digital disruption. While I was there, this thing called the internet started to impact business and so you know, being the young, unimportant guy, they’re like, Jason, you’ve been on the World Wide Web.

Should we even have a website was literally the first question that I was asked. And that was a non-obvious answer at that time, right because the browser available back then was Spyglass like, you know, Netscape hadn’t even been launched or mosaic. And so we went through those kinds of problems. And then, you know, early on, we actually sold some merchandise on the web. And I think we beat Amazon to the web, you know, back then. And then that, of course, grew into a pretty big part of the business. We sold blockbuster to a media company here in the US called Viacom entertainment. I went to work for some other retailers like Best Buy and music land that were struggling with a lot of the same, same issues. So I was lucky enough to be involved in the early eCommerce efforts of a lot of what ultimately became big enterprises.

Joris: Yeah, and that’s, that’s quite exceptional. I mean, that there aren’t that many people who have been basically at the start of eCommerce are already doing this. That’s, you know, that’s awesome.

Jason: And successful and retired. I’m the only one still working.

Joris: So he must have done something wrong. And anyway, so right now you are a chief commerce strategy officer. For the group of the purpose, first of all, for people who are not really familiar with the Publicis group, can you explain a bit? Who we are… what they do?

Jason: Yeah, yep. So there was a big agency holding company. So Publicis Group owns hundreds of agencies. Many of the famous names that you’d be familiar with like Leo Burnett, and Saatchi and Saatchi, all those agencies provide various marketing services, media services, and digital services to clients. So I sort of sit on top of the thought leadership team that supports all of those agencies and helps us build the capabilities and expertise that the agencies need to serve clients in the commerce space.

Joris: Okay, so that does that mean so chief commerce Strategy Officer, does that mean that you basically don’t think about educating the agencies and the strategy or how does your day look like as a chief strategy? I’m trying to wrap my head around it actually.

Jason: Me too, and if you figure it out before me then let me know. In general, like a portion of the role is, is customer-facing. So a lot of it is helping to reinforce publicist thought leadership in the space and have clients think of us as a credible subject matter expert in the space. So I go to a lot of conferences and speak to you you mentioned the podcast and the Twitter feed and some of those, those other activities where I get to interact with, quite frankly, future prospective clients. But then as you sort of alluded to a big part of my role is internal education. So you know, working with an agency that may have a lot of deep usability expertise, but may not have a particular focus on Commerce, and educating them about and I hesitate to use the word best practices because that’s a loaded word, but educating them about the kinds of things we would think about in usability, specific to commerce. mobile commerce, usability and things like that. So a lot of its educating the agency. Some of it is strategic capabilities development, like, hey, there’s this new thing called PWAs. And we don’t have a core competency in the group. I think we should, you know, build a an agency that that excellent at that building progressive web apps or maybe acquire an agency. So you know, sort of one third customer-facing thought leadership, one-third internal education in knowledge share and sort of one third, strategy and capabilities development.

Joris: Okay, yeah, that’s interesting. So I imagine you travel a lot as well then.

Jason: I do. I’m based in Chicago in the in the US, but I like to say I’m here infrequently because I’m generally on the road every week.

Joris: Yeah, isn’t it headquarters of Publicis in Paris?

Publicis in Paris

Jason: Yes, we have some excellent real estate. Our headquarters are like right on the end of the Chaps d’Elysee overlooking the Arc de Triomphe and a little known fact, the original founder of Publicis came to the US a really interesting store retail concept in the 1950s. And he brought it back to Paris and opened it on the Champs Elysees. So there’s a store that we’ve been operating since about 1953 called Publicis Drugstore, like, you know, one of the premier retail boulevards in the world. And it actually gives us the living playground for interacting with customers and selling stuff then, of course, we support eCommerce for that store as well.

Joris: Oh, okay. That’s interesting. I didn’t know that. I knew the group and knew they were French, but I didn’t know that and interesting location, Champs Elysees that’s not too bad. 

Jason: It means you can’t stay at a cheap hotel when you visit the corporate headquarters though.

Joris: I know, it’s quite an expensive area there. I know. But the last day of the Tour de France, that’s the best day.

Jason: Right? Like I don’t tend to be there. But, but literally, our balcony overlooks like, I mean, like the news crews rent space on our balcony to film the Tour de France.

Joris: Oh, okay. I’m a I’m a big cycling nerd. We won’t go into that. But uh, yeah, anyway, jealous I would definitely go there every year.

Anyway, let’s talk a bit more about eCommerce. So what do you see like, as the biggest challenge when it comes to eCommerce conversions?

Jason: Sort of an open question like because there are a lot of challenges. And I think if you like it if you go survey 100 clients, you’ll find some common themes, but you’ll find a pretty broad standard deviation from that theme as well. But one that comes up an awful lot at the mobile is what I at the moment is what I call the mobile gap. And that is this notion that obviously, our traffic on all our properties is shifting to predominantly mobile for the majority of my retail clients like well over 50% of all their traffic tends to be on mobile devices. But the dirty little secret is the conversion rate on those mobile devices tends to be a lot worse than it was on the desktop device. So if you extrapolate that that’s not a very famous theme for a trend for eCommerce. We talk a lot about how to sort of remediate that that mobile gap on behalf of clients that are, you know, experiencing that that shift in audience.

Joris: Okay. And any thoughts you can share on how to do that?

eCommerce Conversions

Jason: Yeah, fine, fine, better customers is the easiest way. But I haven’t. Turns out that one’s actually not so easy. But yeah, like there’s a lot of factors that contribute to that some, some are usability related. Some are not like there’s, you know, a lot of different missions people perform on their mobile device that they historically didn’t perform on the desktop device. And so we actually have incremental visits to the site, where the intent was probably not to consummate a purchase like you’re going to see a lot more store locator traffic on your mobile device than you are on desktop. You’re going to see a lot more inventory checks for a brick and mortar store on a mobile device. And so you know, in the simple-minded, conversion, you know, site-wide average conversion Rate like all those detrimentally affect conversion rate even though you know, they probably didn’t. they marry me, they may very well have accomplished their mission. So there’s some of that sort of attribution problems that that compound the problem, but there is a lot of fundamental usabilities, friction in mobile devices like obviously we have smaller real estate, checking out and eCommerce like it is in its essence is a form and mistakes that we maybe got away with on desktop around best practices and form are high in forms are highly exacerbated on mobile. And so in order to get all the sort of blocking and tackling form usability stuff, right, and you know, I like to joke one of the problems with mobile is it takes three hands to check out you have one to hold one hold the credit card, and one to tap the screen. And most of us don’t, don’t have three hands. So there’s an affordable problem. Obviously, if you have a shopper using a digital wallet, Like, that’s much lower friction. And sure enough, when you go to countries where digital wallets are very prevalent like China, or you go to sites where, you know, the user base is heavily embracing the digital wallet like Amazon, you tend to see much higher conversion rate and much lower mobile gap. So those sorts of things all come into play.

Joris: Yeah, absolutely. And yeah, I totally agree also on on what you say, like the, the intent of people on mobile, I mean, we can dream and, and hope to get the mobile conversion rate at the same level of destiny, but it’s probably never going to happen, because a lot of people just go to the mobile site with a different intent, as you said, to find a store for instance. So but in your experience, so let’s say you have a desktop conversion rate of 2%. What could you expect for the mobile conversion rate?

Jason: Yeah, well, so industry averages like across all of the sites. I work with The mobile conversion rate tends to be about a third of desktop. So like that 2% desktop site might literally be a point six conversion rate for mobile, and tends to fluctuate between that sort of point six and 1% for a site that has a 2% desktop conversion rate. So that’s, that’s quite acute.

Joris: Yeah. Okay. And tablet somewhere in between there?

Jason: Yeah, I’ll be honest, and maybe this is my bad attitude. A tablet is somewhere in between the traffic trends on tablet tend to be less statistically meaningful for my clients. And increasingly, the tablet industry is doing us the favor of morphing the tablet into a desktop. So you know, the latest version of the iPad OS, you know, which is now a forked OS at Apple like that. It’s a desktop browser instead of the mobile browser. And so you’re you know, if you’re on a an adaptive or responsive site, you’re going, you’re now getting the desktop version of that the site on that device. And of course, the, you know, Microsoft has actually gotten quite a good traction with their surface products. And, and so you know, the tablet is ending up to behave and look much more similar to the, to the desktop. Like, that’s not absolutely true. And so, you know, like, on your list of initiatives to solve, like, you know, tablet is a unique segment, but I’ll be honest, there are so many higher-order problems to solve that. You know, it usually doesn’t make a lot of sense to get to that problem. 

Joris: So if you would, like, optimize the mobile version of aside, what is it would you look for first, what’s usually the lowest hanging fruit?

Jason: Yeah, well, so I have an old mentor. That said, generally, the best way to make more money is to Take it from the people that are trying to give it to you. And so to me, that means that usually where I would start, if I’m looking for a low hanging fruit is on that checkout funnel. And, you know, for an individual site, like obviously, you know, you can use the analytics to kind of look at behavior and see where the mobile gap is most acute like is product discovery similar on mobile and desktop, and we just have a worse checkout funnel degradation or, you know, you can use analytics to kind of zero in for a specific client. But if I don’t know anything, I’m going to start with that checkout funnel that there usually is a lot of friction in that checkout funnel, a really simple principle that that has held very true for me, I’m always hesitant to talk about best practices, because the reality is, like I sort of don’t believe in them like, you know, what works for one tends to not work for another client.

And so I, I always like to caveat when I speak in generalizations, but I’ll tell you two generalizations that have almost always been true for me on mobile optimizations, faster pages perform better, and so you know, for sure, attacking Page Speed, which is almost always a problem on mobile is a significant opportunity. And these days, frankly, there’s a lot of automated solutions that can kind of get you started on your path to Page Speed optimization that are cheap and easy. And then another near-universal axiom is the future for fields I ask a customer to fill out on their checkout journey, the higher the conversion rate, right and so you know, I did a study this is so little old now. So hopefully the world’s improved slightly, but on average across my client base, you had to fill out 23 fields to do check out to purchase something from a physical good from an eCommerce site. Yeah, you really have to be motivated to do that. Right. Exactly. And I you know, when I talked about this, I always like to draw the mental pictures of the form you probably feel that when you know, started with a new doctor or the form you feel that when you got in a car accident and you’re hoping the insurance will pay for it like there’s not a favorable association with filling out these He’s working for, you know, we really sort of thought about him and said, like, what’s the most streamlined possible path you could have? For most use cases, we get it down to about five fields. And so you go, man, you know, you’re asking someone to fill out 23 fields of information. If you can reduce that to five or seven or eight fields, you’ve reduced a lot of friction from the checkout and almost universally, that that improves their mobile conversion rate.

Joris: Yeah, and totally right. I am on the same page as you. But I’m also on the same page that I think it’s dangerous to talk about best practices, although these are what people would call the best practice and I tend to call them common practices or protocol difficult principles. So even like Yeah, yeah, because the term best I mean, it has it. I mean, it has such high expectations. And in the end, I we’ve seen a lot is what works for one side doesn’t necessarily work for another side. We’ve run AB tests which may be tested on several eCommerce sites and with different results, and sometimes it wins. Sometimes it loses sometimes it’s inconclusive, and even stuff that is so-called best practice. And that’s why I prefer to speak about common practices or prototypical principles, but you are right stuff like speed and reducing friction. You can’t go wrong with that. If you have an eCommerce site and you’re considering an app, would you recommend that is that for everyone or just a certain segment of eCommerce stores?

Jason: Yeah, so I generally am pretty negative on native apps for retailers. And the reason I say that is like there are very consistent axiom apps tend to convert much better than then native mobile websites. So you know, I just talked about the mobile gap problem. And you go, Yeah, but Jason, my mobile app has a similar conversion rate, or maybe even better than my desktop app. Sort of the answer, like the to the double-headed problem there is number one, correlation and causation are difficult to discern, right? So yes, app users tend to be your, your most loyal, engaged users. And you know, you would certainly hope that they would have a higher conversion rate than, you know, cold, unfamiliar customers that are coming to your site for the first time. But the bigger issue is that apps have incredibly poor reach, you know, frequently I walk into a client, they already have an app, and they’re bragging about their download metrics, which is, you know, sort of the Quinn, the akin to telling me in 2019, about your Facebook likes, not a very relevant or important metric. I’m much more interested in your active monthly or, or active weekly users.

And in most cases, that’s an embarrassingly low number for retailers like there’s a handful of retailers that have very good reach with their mobile apps and man, they should knock themselves out and, you know, continue to invest in those. But most retailers have spent more you know, a ton of money on this native mobile app. As a very small active user base by part of the reason is, you know, a joke, you know, my mom, and my hypothesis is no one else’s mom knows their iTunes passwords, right? So you know, you need a password in order to download that app. If you go to an apple store anywhere in the world, and standard, the Genius Bar, what you’re gonna see is a long line of people waiting to recover their iTunes password, right, none of those people could download your app. And once they download it, the mortality rate is overwhelming, like something like 95% of people abandon that app after three months. And so the amount of apps customers religiously use a super small, it tends to all be apps made by Facebook and Google, so there’s very little room for the rest of us. And so it just, and of course, apps don’t tend to, you know, to be indexed in major search engines, so they don’t have a lot of organic traffic. So for all those reasons, the app can be a very good loyalty play for your most loyal customer. If the metrics support that there’s an ROI there, but it Got it’s not a good tool for reach. It’s not a good general solution for conversion rate. And I mentioned earlier in the show, there’s sort of a newer architecture for building a native mobile website.

Joris: It’s gonna be my next question. Yeah. Peter right away, right?

Jason: Yeah, exactly. PWA is a progressive web app. I hate the name. Because when I say that name to anyone that’s not familiar with the technology, which today is still the majority of users. They assume it’s an app, and they assume it’s a replacement for that, that native app and well, that it potentially can be and that is a small part of its value add, like what it really is, is a better, more modern framework for building a native mobile website, right. And so it’s a website that likely has much better page performance. It likely has a lot of attributes more in common with a native app, but it’s a mobile website that can be well indexed by Google and bad and can, you know, sort of find new customers and has all the good attributes of a native mobile website. And then on top of that, you can save it to your desktop and use it as an app if you like. And we’ve been asking some very big retailers. In the US Starbucks has a native mobile website, and they have a native app and the app is hugely used. But as Starbucks’s has expanded geographically, when they moved into China, they didn’t bother building a native app for China. They just deployed a progressive web app. And so that you know, that one asset serves both the native mobile users and the frequent users that want to save it to their desktop and it works quite well for them.

Joris: Yeah, absolutely. And as an end-user, I think are great. I mean, they’re super fast is it’s just fun to use them. You immediately notice the difference with a regular mobile site. So I definitely think it’s me personally, I can’t predict the future of course, but I think they’re going to a big breakthrough in the following years, probably. You as well?

Jason: I’m generally very, very bullish on them, I would say you haven’t heard a ton about them. Because in total not too long ago, there were there was a lot of browser support issues with them. So they were supported, you know, as of the latest Safari browser, like now most of the major platforms support the overwhelming majority of the feature set. So there’s still some, some kind of minor feature parity issues around the edges. But the core feature set of the PWA now works across all the popular and mobile browsers. So that was a big threshold that we just got over. And it still is a complicated and more difficult thing to build. So it requires more of the level of effort of an app than it does a mobile website. And so it’s frankly understandable that a lot of people that felt like their website was difficult to build don’t want to sign up to tackle this more complicated implementation. But you know, the tools continue to get better the libraries and whatnot continue to get better. So it’s going to continue to get easier to build these Progressive Web apps. And you know, also in my world, most retailers just made a big investment in what they would call. And this is another term that that’s somewhat ambiguous a responsive website. And they thought they were going to depreciate that investment over a large number of years. And so when I really in a year or two, after they built that site and say, Hey, you want to throw it away and build a progressive web app, that doesn’t always immediately get the best reception?

Joris: No, I can imagine if it’s just going to be a matter of time, it’s gonna be it’s going to get easier and cheaper to build them, I guess, and, and people will get more familiar with it, probably Google will start favoring them as well in indexing and that that’s also going to trigger retailers probably too well, to sort of looking into it. Well, please, that’s my my guest here. Now. I wouldn’t. Yeah, so what do you think about AMP? I mean, I sometimes get that question from clients and I don’t think it’s a great idea for eCommerce and I always say like, Don’t do it, maybe for your blog pages, but especially not for the store pages. What’s your take on AMP?

Jason: Yeah, I tend to agree. There, there are very convoluted implementations where, you know, for certain aspects of the eCommerce experience you can, in fact, leverage an AMP and you can get a performance benefit from that. But it’s almost always the case that there’s an alternative path to that same performance benefit. That’s less awkward. I mean, just really wasn’t designed for eCommerce. It was designed for static pages, in most Good, good implementations of eCommerce. There’s some personalization on every single page, right? And so the two just don’t overlap all that much. It can be done but like usually I can find a better way to deploy those resources for a bigger bang.

Joris: Yeah, absolutely. But funnily enough, I that’s when clients start looking into increasing the speed of their mobile site, they end up well at all points with AMP and they miss out on PWA. It’s like, that’s really his first question I get is like, should I do an MPO? No, stay away from that bite, you could look into PWA. And then they’re like more hesitant. And so that’s probably because of the price tag as well.

Jason: Yeah, to be honest, there’s some. But so obviously, you know, there’s a bunch of sort of native things you can do around improving mobile performance. But if you’re not prepared to invest in those things, if you’re not prepared to crack into the code, and you know, do some some sprints around performance optimization, there are now a bunch of I’ll call them proxy solutions that sit in your native server and the customer sort of a see a CDN with page optimization capabilities. Sometimes these companies call themselves front end optimization services, and on an automated basis, they can actually do quite a good job. So like, with my preferred solution, be that you build an inefficient website and then fix it with a problem. In front of it, no, no. But if you’ve already built something, and you don’t have a lot of resources, but you know that speed is an issue, or you want to sort of doing a split path test to prove that speed is an issue, you know, these, these proxy services work surprisingly well. And I have to remind people, when I say that someone, they’re like, oh, I already have a CDN, and I have a famous CDN that everyone uses. So that must be in the sort of evil unspoken fact, in our industry. CD ends make money by delivering bits of information. And the more bits they deliver, the more money they make, they actually have a financial disincentive to deliver fewer bits, but mo never thought about it like that.

Joris: That’s yeah, that’s interesting. So it goes in there.

Jason: You know, Page Speed optimization, optimize the number of bits they sent, right? And so yeah, well, well, all CD ends, you know, do have features to try to help with page performance. They don’t tend to be comprehensive and they don’t tend to have a financial incentive to be comprehensive. So be a bit careful there.

Joris: Yeah. So is there any of those front end optimization services you would recommend?

Front-End Optimization Services

Jason: Yeah. So I was afraid you were going to say that as there’s a host of them. I may be mispronouncing this, but there’s a popular one called Yolatta. Okay. And they actually they do some cool thought leadership. They just published a study I really liked where they, they evaluated all the plugins on the top 1500 eCommerce sites, and they sort of report on how well each of those plugins performed. And you know how common those plugins were across, you know, various kinds of eCommerce sites, which is super interesting to me, because I like to joke in, I have some very industry-specific jokes, but in the page performance industry, I like to joke that it’s the biggest lie in eCommerce that, oh, we’re just one little tag and we have no effect on your site performance. Because most oftentimes, a lot of performance has to do This amalgamation of third party tags you have in your site. So Yolatta is an interesting one like there are sort of next-generation CD ends that have front end performance optimization options. Usually you have to pay extra or turn them on. But so certainly cloud flare has some interesting options. fastly is a newer, you know, modern CDN with some great front end performance optimization. So, I’d probably start with some of those.

Joris: Yeah, okay. What do you think is in the head in the future for eCommerce, what kind of trends and evolutions to expect in the coming year or year? So we already talked about PWA and anything else you expect to become bigger and bigger?

Jason: Yeah, well, so four different categories of eCommerce, my answer would probably be slightly different. But like one interesting thing, we talked about eCommerce constantly, like you know, you and I live and breathe it. Like it’s important to remember that depending on how you count, like it’s still in the sort of 10 to 15% penetration, right. I’m not one of these people that believe eCommerce is ever going to be the majority of all transactions that I’m quite confident it’s going to be much bigger than 15%. So I like to remind people were still and I apologize for the baseball reference, but we’re still in the first couple innings of this game. And you know, one of the categories that we spend the most money on and that we make the most purchases in is grocery. And that’s a category that has had very little traditional penetration with eCommerce. And so I sort of feel like we’re right now in the cusp, where shopping behaviors are changing. You know, home delivery is somewhat problematic, and the unit economics are really complicated, but curbside pickup or click and collect makes a ton of sense for grocery and I’ve literally like interviewed thousands of shoppers that call it a life-changing experience. So to me, that’s a big change when people start selecting their groceries from a manicured shopping list as opposed to you know, going to the store. It has all kinds of implications and how we sell impulse purchases and how we expose customers to new products and new brands. That’s a big deal. And then, you know a lot of these categories in particular in grocery is huge disruption is today, we have to sort of explicitly order everything we need. And we can go through a lot of friction to do that. Increasingly, we’re going to have better ways to implicitly understand what goods you need and just have those goods arrive when you need them.

So that could be machine learning, looking at your past purchases and predictive shipping. It could be the you know, the simple webcam in your kitchen that you know is now noticing the items you throw away and use and predictively ordering. It could be the coffee machine, that’s an Internet of Things device and proactively ordering, you know, coffee and soap for your dishwasher and those kinds of things. But like on the aggregate, I feel like there’s going to be a big shift in eCommerce from what I call explicit to ordering to implicit ordering, and that that has a lot of ramifications in terms of you know who the winners and losers are going to be and who’s best suited for that future.

Joris: Yeah, that’s interesting. I never thought about it that way. So basically, you’re never going to run out of toilet paper

Jason: One of the easiest problems and most beneficial to mankind we solve through eCommerce.

Joris: Awesome. Hey, this is a great, but maybe one last question, because we’re running out of time. But uh, so you have your own podcast Jason Scott show. For people who don’t know podcast yet definitely check it out which episode is one of your favorite episodes? And I know that’s it. That’s a very different difficult question. I would have a hard time answering that one myself. So

Jason: Yes, yes. I love all my babies. Yeah. Yeah. And so you know, and we do have quite a few episodes. At this point. We’re coming up on our 200th episode. So we’re, we’ve published about 191 I want to say but there’s, like frankly, five more in the can including the 200th episode have already been recorded and the most recent ones are ones I tend to enjoy. So you know, if you, I hesitate to tell anyone to wait but make sure you’re on the lookout in November for our 200th episode we’ve made it, we wanted to make it special and we got a special guest, I thought it was a really good show. So I can’t wait for that to go live. Most of the shows I do with a co-host who’s much smarter than me, Scott window and the two of us have a lot of fun together and sort of make fun of each other. But obviously my favorite shows are the small handful of shows I did without Scott. Because I get to get more words in edgewise. 

I’m kind of teasing but that it sort of worked out that we got to interview some interesting sort of entrepreneurial founders and so you know, on shows that unfortunately, Scott wasn’t able to make so I the founder of thread up was an interview I did that I really liked like some of these startups that were its sort of the founding CEO are really interesting to me because this is a CEO that had to solve really all the business problems in his business. And they tend to be really well versed in all the aspects of their business as opposed to sort of just a strategic leader. And so, you know, I talked to one of the founders of a, of a shark tank company called bottle keeper. That’s super interesting. And the founders of Tommy john and bomba socks, and so some of the founder CEOs from some of these digitally native brands are, you know, ended up being some of my favorite conversations because of how, how smart and broad the CEO was in there for the conversation.

Joris: So, so our listeners who want to check it out, they can start with a bottle keeper and the like. So that’s perfect, yeah, Jason, this has been absolutely great. And we could probably go on for hours talking about eCommerce. But yeah, as I said, we’re running out of time, and I want to make sure that people know how they can find you there more about you. Yeah, what’s the best place for people to connect with you?

Jason: Yep. So I tend to hang out on all the digital platforms. My handle is usually @retailgeek. So you can, you know, catch me on twitter @retailgeek or, you know LinkedIn or you know, sort of you could probably still find me on Myspace if you need to

AIM or ICQ if you want to get, you know, old school, you could probably find me there still. 

Joris: Yeah, or old school phone or

Jason: An IRC? Yeah. Oh, yeah. I do have one of those phones. I think it’s even an app in my mobile device here. I could use.

Joris: Awesome. Thank you so much for being here. Jason’s been really great and fun. Thank you so much. 

Jason: Great talking to you. Thanks very much for inviting me.