Ian Hammersley, of consultancy Smartebusiness, has never met you but if your eCommerce business has plateaued or is not scaling up as you expected… he already has some ideas on why.
He and his colleagues have come up with a formula, using a group of key numbers from your business, that can pinpoint where to make changes to take your venture to the next level.
Does your business measure up? Ian walks us through the benchmarks you should look at… and where they should be for a business of your size. Often, he says, working on the low hanging fruit first can yield huge improvements.
He says that conversion rate optimization is often the last thing to look at in this effort. We talk about that, as well as…
- The power of the Market Square Test
- How to figure out where exactly you’re losing customers
- Why most companies can ignore today’s eCommerce industry trends
- The most important metrics too many eCommerce entrepreneurs ignore
- And more
Mentioned in this episode:
Joris Bryon: Hey, this is Joris of the eCommerce Excellence podcast and today I’m really excited to talk to Ian Hammersley. He’s the CEO of Smartebusiness and he specializes in eCommerce growth consultancy for those eCommerce companies who are actually doing well but have plateaued and that are now stuck for ideas and how to take your business to the next level and dramatically increase their bottom line.
He’s also an accomplished author. He’s written several books and his latest, his Ultimate Guide to eCommerce Growth: Seven Unexpected KPIs to Scale An eCommerce Shop to 10 million Pounds and Up. Ian, welcome to the podcast. Great to have you here.
Ian Hammersley: Oh, yeah. How are you doing? Good to hear from you.
Joris: Yeah. So yeah, tell us a bit about you. Your background where you come from in your career, how did you end up in eCommerce?
Ian: Yeah, cool. Yeah, no, yeah, very, very briefly. Currently I’m set in Manchester in the UK and in an old textile mill in the center in the center of town and 15 years ago, we set up the commerce growth consultancy company. And we’ve been down here really eating, sleeping, and breathing eCommerce growth for the last 15 years, and I got into it really by accident really we were doing general websites we 15 years ago we were doing to WordPress sites and we had some eCommerce sites. And in 2008 we have the credit crunch happen, the big crash that happened and all of the WordPress site, the clients that we had on WordPress stop Investing. And with the client, the eCommerce clients were the ones that actually carried on investing.
So we had, I think, eight eCommerce clients at that time. And some of them were scaling really well, and some of them were not scaling. And so my brother and I locked ourselves away in the basement and tried to see what was the consistency between the ones that were scaling and the ones that weren’t– what were they? What were the numbers? What was the math behind the ones that were going from 2 million to 5 million to 10 million? And why were certain ones plateauing and what was the consistency and essentially, that then led to the framework that we have, which is the growth formula, which is very much a simple mathematical framework where we split down the key KPIs, and that’s what we wrote the book about. Because it became our whole ethos really and then and several years ago we wrote the book and that’s what I speak about and it’s still very much true today.
Joris: Alright, so basically you discovered the commonalities between a good performing eCommerce and not so good performing eCommerce and you turn that into a formula. So those are the formula is that the same as a seven KPIs you talked about in the book?
The Seven KPIs
Ian: It is. In the book, we go into all the detail but in a nutshell, what we did was, as we actually looked at, we benchmark because we were looking at eCommerce sites all day long, and you start to get a picture of what the stats should be. And I don’t mean things like conversion rate, or average order value. We’re looking at things like what the bounce percentages are on average, and what the basket to order percentages are. And, and you start to get an idea of where they should be. And we often find, that people talk about conversion rate optimization, and what’s your conversion rate percentage, and it’s essentially it’s a bit like saying to someone, be more successful, sell more, you have to know where that conversion rate comes from. And so we started to break it down. And the seven KPIs essentially, are the main things that we look at, and we put it into a lovely, nice spreadsheet and say, this is where we are. This is where we think you should be for a business like yours. And in order to get to the 5 million, 8 million, 12 million growth over the next two, three years.
This is what these KPIs need to be and it takes away all of the emotion and I think with the with eCommerce growth, that it’s one of the industries where there are so many new magic ones thrown at you. There are new technologies is new, you know, artificial intelligence, new personalization. And actually, it’s, it’s where it’s very easy to have a scattergun approach and try to optimize all the site all over the place when actually your lowest hanging fruit might be to improve the average order value or to improve the anti basket stuff. And, and I think that the fundamentals of our framework that we’ve been using for the last probably 10 years, but really, really honing it over the last five was, was breaking down the conversion rate. And if I just give you a little glimpse of it, the conversion rate will break down to three things. The first one is how many people love to basket, the percentage of people that are coming out to basket and on average, we say that should be about 10%.
And then the people that are in the basket 65% of them, then click into the checkout. And then when they’re in the checkout, 85% of them should then go ahead and place their order. So as a general benchmark, even though of course, all eCommerce sites are different, that’s a really, really useful three-step break down that you can then have a look because all the data in Google Analytics is there so you can see it all. And it’s how then you know your conversion rate is, is 2%. You want to get it to 4%. Well, the answer is going to be in either the basket to check out and check out to order. And most of the time, it’s half the basket, that’s low. Yeah. And then if the other baskets low, then you look at bounce rate and you say, well, the product pages should be bouncing no more than 60% on average category no more than 50% and at home base, no more, no more than 25% and so essentially you’re looking at the mathematical logic for eCommerce growth, rather than looking at the front end of the Sinaitic you all well, I, I think maybe the checkout it’s a bit clunky or, you know, I don’t like that drop down on the basket page for the delivery and, and it might be the last completely justified, but it won’t be affecting any revenue. So essentially, it’s taking a step back and having a look at the actual math, the metrics.
Joris: Yeah, absolutely. And I love that kind of data-driven approach. Because people get hung up on stuff that they see on other sides and they think the competitors know it better and or they see case studies and they see the latest shiny object and they jump on that but basically it’s Yeah, and it’s about getting your basics right and I was as a guest on a podcast was a few weeks ago. They got asking the question like, Okay, what are the trends that you’re seeing for, for Well, next year or so in eCommerce? Like, I don’t really like to look at trends and shiny, new stuff, because most of the eCommerce companies, they don’t even have their basics in order. So let’s focus on that first let’s let’s build those foundations. And we’re going to first before we jump on the next shiny.
Ian: Oh, yeah, it’s so true. And I think yeah, this industry is just full of people trying to sell the magic shiny thing. And, and then at the same time, you know, the clients, that bounce rate on their product page might be 85%, which means that they’re never going to be profitable through Google Shopping and that that becomes their glass ceiling and they are going to stick on 5 million turnover or 1 million turnovers and never get past it and you know, it. It is Yeah, it’s quite fun to break it down. It makes everything clear, right? How to get growth.
Joris: Yeah, and where you should focus on and it’s, it’s sometimes I feel like if if you want to sell something right now we should talk about AI and machine learning because even though nobody can really explain what it is and how it works, but if you don’t mention that, then you’re just gonna, you’re just not going to get any attention. But, but yeah, stuff like bounce rate as, as, as you say, is such an important metric, and most people don’t look at it or just disregard it.
How To Get Growth
Ian: You know, I think just for the fun, the fun thing to talk about is it whenever we’re talking about these stats, the seven APIs, the leader, the growth we always compare it to, what would it look like if it was it was a physical brick and mortar store on the high street, and you know, your customers were coming in, and, you know, they’re going over to the, you know, the channels on the picking something up putting into the basket, and that’s the add to basket and then they’re walking in we’re to the tail and the trying to pay for it. And that’s when they get into the basket. And then they’re in the checkout, and it’s how many people will drop off and, and if the customer in the shop, but something in their basket, drop the basket on the floor and just walked out of the shop, you’d be like, What? That’s weird, though, why are they doing that? And it’s, it’s exactly the same. And, you know, the data is all there to see. And you can see which products are they’re dropping on the floor walking out and, and you know, where they leave is where the opportunity is. And if you think you know what, let’s say 4% of people might convert on an eCommerce site, you don’t have an account a reasonably optimized one that’s got a good house file, you know, 96% of people are leaving. So that 96 % like, Where are they? Where are they dropping off? Yeah, whether obviously either getting to the product page and bouncing off going back into Google or they’re covering click through the search to something and essentially that’s where the growth is when?
Joris: Yeah. Yeah, yeah, absolutely. So you mentioned those numbers like at the basket should be around 10%. That’s an average. So I’m sometimes I’m a bit reluctant to use benchmarks like that. Because Yeah, it’s hard to say like, this one’s for every store, what’s your take on that?
Ian: Yeah, I mean, I totally understand that. And I think a lot of people in our position are very hesitant to say that and I agree. However, I always say well, yes, it’s very different for different industry but at least if you start with a benchmark of comparing yourself against the basket of 10% you know, let’s say we know a higher average order value, fashion product, where you get a lot of window shoppers, you know, you’re not going to get enough to buy rate of 10% it might be more like 4%. But the metrics of scaling your growth in terms of improving your conversion rate is always the same way. It’s added to the basket to order a basket to check out to order. And so those three things are, you know, it’s the same method of scaling.
And so I think it’s just quite helpful to start with the basic benchmark. And then and then I think that’s interesting to say to that, you know, you say, Well, okay, our basket stuff is 4%. But when they get into the checkout, you know, 90-95% of them buy. And, and so by just looking at that going, well, we’re not going to get more than 95% completion in the checkout. So let’s forget the checkout. That’s a waste of time we’re not going to make any money. If you know, our two baskets are only 3%. And if we got that to 5%, whilst maintaining this same basket to all the statistics, you will have almost doubled our conversion rate which doubles revenue. So it’s, it’s, I think it’s I get it I do, but I also like, I like to use a stat because it makes it clear to understand.
Joris: Yeah, and to track progress basically. That’s a Yeah, that’s right. Yeah. Yeah, it is very helpful, maybe to some very nerdy and technical question. But so the Add to basket, rate, and basket to check out rate. So let’s say you have a store because sometimes you can skip the basket altogether. Yeah. How do you go about that? How do you look at a basket to check out rate in that case, because people don’t necessarily have to go over to check over to the basket page? Plus, there’s a scenario but possible as well, the checkout to order, for instance, People on the basket they can choose to checkout with PayPal, they skip the checkout altogether on the confirmation page, how do you track that?
Tracking Atypical Metrics
Ian: So yes, so that’s often the case and know that you’ve got the system where you’ve got this quick, quick bio, or sometimes the Yeah, they can go straight from the mini basket to the checkout and they can bypass the right. And so what we do in that scenario, we combine the basket to check out and check out two orders that are warm. And so So on average, that it’s 44%. So if so, one out, so on average, that you know, if 10% of people at the basket, then when they when they’ve actually done that event, 44% of the people should actually buy on average. So you can combine the two things there. It’s a very interesting one to test. That that that’s we did a really interesting split test with a big, a big wine retailer. Actually that if I mention the name, you’ll have heard of them. It won’t for client confidentiality. But what we tested was, they had the mini basket dropdown. And they were taking people straight to the checkout. And a lot of the new eCommerce sites do this. And you know, there’s no one size fits all. And just because some feature works on one side, you will not lose Good. Let’s put it on ours.
Well, this particular one was where they took people straight from the mini basket to the checkout. So they bypass the basket page. And we said, well, we think people like the reassurance of seeing the basket, what’s in it, particularly in this case, because it was adding six wines to the basket. And we said, Look, we want to take them to the basket, and split test it. And it was a 10% uplift of conversion. And that for this client, because they were doing significant revenue was with nearly 5 million pounds of additional revenue. By taking them didn’t make huge I mean, it was an easy one because a client was already doing a lot but you know, that whole thing where you, you the notion is that you’ve got to try to make the checkout as, as quick as possible two steps are better than three, three steps are better than four, you know, it often is not the case. You know, the issue in all, in all cases, really is, is the outer basket staff is most of the time the problem at the basket to check out that can also be an issue, but it’s different. You know, don’t bother looking at it unless you start some, you know, a low, you know, in case of a sort of, you know, focusing on the right thing at the right time for the quickest revenue good.
Joris: So, yeah, that’s interesting. So you mentioned the outer basket, typically that’s where the main problem is. What are some good ways to improve that all, let me put it differently? Where do you typically look at next, you see that it’s low? What are the usual suspects?
Ian: So the after basket one is, is a really good place to start. And if you’re at the basket size low, so let’s say on average, we say 10%. But if yours is like 2% or 3%. The first thing than to look at is the bounce rate, essentially. And the reason why the outer basket start is decreasing over time is that people are coming indirectly from the to the product page. And that’s through things like Google Shopping and Facebook product ads. So they’re not landing on the homepage anymore, and go to homepage category product, you know that they’re all they’re almost landing straight on the product page. And what happens is that the temptation to go back into Google back into Facebook from that product pages landed on is huge. And to the foot. So you typically find that let’s say someone is looking for a navy blue jacket. And they clicked on the navy blue jacket. And at this point, they’re not convinced that is the right navy blue jacket, they want to see other navy blue jackets. And so the first thing you got to make sure is that the product page is not a dead-end page. You know, it’s not the only product because I guarantee if it’s the only product there people will bounce back off.
And so that so if you if your bounce rate is high, and I say on the product page, we want it less than 60% on average, if you decrease that bounce rate and I bet if you look at it now a lot of the clients who do Google Shopping they’ll find that it’s at you know on average, which usually You reduce that bounce rate down, you increase the basket percentage which of course will increase the conversion rate which will increase the revenue so bounce rate in our basket or really linked together so that so the first thing with the anti basket is often okay what’s the bounce rate and it’s in the bounce rates massive because it’s dead end page because there’s nowhere else people to go and so you want then related categories related searches have got to that page so it’s it should be a destination landing page then says hey, look at all these other navy blue jackets and here’s the whole cast group navy blue jacket needs our best selling navyjacket you’re just like you would in a physical store. And once you’ve done that, then, of course, you got to make sure that the basket button is above the fold. Got to make sure that stock is clearly displayed in the book. We have a checklist and that is quite useful to share with its I got about it. 12 things that we actually bring Right down. And really, these are the most fundamental things you got to do to get you out to basket up. And but it is things like that can’t be that in the page, bring the basketball above the fold, make sure that you’ve got stock, you know, it’s clear when I’m going to get it, you know, you need to focus on squashing the anxieties. You know, make sure that the tabs are open these frequently asked questions. I mean, people now trusting the frequently asked questions and the reviews board and the description that you’re writing, which is quite interesting.
Joris: Yeah, absolutely. I like the idea of making sure it’s not a dead-end page. I remember the case of one of our clients where we actually tested on the product page, adding the recommended items section or similar items or other customers looked at that kind of stuff. I don’t remember what it was exactly. But yeah, we tested it on top of that product page. So it was really above the actual product. So Really about the fall? Yeah. And to be honest, I was, I was a bit hesitant to do that. And But anyway, we tested it. And it turned out to be a big winner because people continued their journey on the side instead of going back to Google.
Ian: Totally. And it is quite well known. Wait, you’ve probably heard of Wayfair. This online furniture store where they did a quite a famous split test was from for and if you do it, now you have a look, go into Google Shopping. So something like Wayfair red sofa, click through on the Google Shopping ad for Wayfair. And you will see that they have a Google Shopping landing page. So what they’ll have is a link they have the product you’ve clicked on at the top. But underneath that, it’s almost like a big Caterpie page. So it’s just full of other products that are similar to that one because they know if you click through on a red sofa, you’re not going to buy the first red sofa, you click on you want to see all those red sofas And they said that, that the people that did buy through Google Shopping 65% of the people that did buy did not buy the product, they first clicked on shopping.
And I’m so it is, and it’s just like you would do if you’re browsing through a real store, you know, you’re not going to go and pick up the first, you know, navy blue jacket, you know, you will see all the navy blue jackets. And even if you like the first one, you find, you know, you want to be well, what else is there? Is this the right one? It’s complete, like common sense. So, I mean, that, you know, I would say that everybody should be doing something specific to the new shopping. You know, yeah, and I agree with you to put those related products or other people looked at and categories are really high up on that product page. I agree above the fold. At this stage, they’re not convinced that they want to buy that product. Once they find the right product, then you can start pushing this stock the price must guarantee the return policy and all the anxiety things that you the social proof all those things, but the first thing is, and as so many people don’t do this is it can’t be a dedicated page. Yeah, the first thing to do.
Joris: Yeah, and I think the more expensive product you sell, the more important and this is because the more items the customer is going to compare, and the more attempts they can be to compare different sites as well. If it’s, if it’s p as let’s say, I don’t know, this is a random number but let’s say like more than 200 euros or pounds, then it’s probably a good thing to pay special attention to, to that kind of stuff.
Ian: Yeah. We call it the buying window, how big the by how long the buying window is and it depends on you know, also if it’s a rational problem-solving product or it’s an emotional spontaneous one, and do you know how quickly they need it. And you know, and that and I think that’s another reason why one size does not fit all, you know, and just as you wouldn’t go into a, you know, a hardware store on the high street and expect it to look the same as a beautiful, you know, cashmere jumper shop next to it, it will be a very different experience and say the sites have to be the same.
Joris: Yeah, that makes total sense. So, I mean, the book is about seven unexpected KPIs, we talked about at the basket to check out to order out this bounce rates one of the seven as well.
Ian: Yeah, so average order value. The average is a big warning we talked about and in the book we talked about how there are only two ways you get the average order value high which is are the more expensive products or more items per order. And that’s almost like a gift the original device, so you need to influence and we talked about lifetime customer value, and how you know how to get that up or We’re seeing that can be such an easy one to do and how certain products can lend themselves to great a lifetime customer value and talk about things like pre premium VIP delivery and things like that. We talked about the traffic obviously in general whether how you’re going to get the traffic from where and trying to recruit it profitably. And we talk about the six-month recruitment rate. So how many customers you’re recruiting over six month period is a useful start because you might have a big customer file that you just milking and eventually they’re going to stop buying. So you need to know how many people you’re recruiting so you don’t fall off a cliff.
And, and when we talk we talk about the speed of the site, the website speed and how that is important because, you know, just like if you were in a shop and the high street, you’re queuing up to pay for something thing bothers, you know, 30 people in front of you think I’ll come back later is exactly the same experience on a lot on on-site. And one of the really interesting things that came out of a test that we did recently was that we one of our sites, clients, we know the average time to but when they somebody bought something was six minutes. And we effectively said we think the site needs to be faster. So so they did a load of work again, the site faster. We made it twice as fast. So you’d expect that the time to buy went from six minutes to three minutes. And it didn’t. It stayed at six minutes. Okay. But what happened was people wouldn’t buy more stuff to the average order value went heart went out. Yeah, yeah. Because so they obviously had people that obviously said, I’m going to spend six minutes solving this problem buying this thing. So this they use the six minutes and they clicked around a lot more onboard. A lot of the other things as well, so the average order value went up from, like, one 1.2 to 1.9. Which, you know, to be honest, was, I mean, this particular client doing, you know, over 10 million, and, you know, like, Oh my god, yeah, the game changed, you know, and then you just thought that, that your average order value would go up with increasing, decreasing your site’s be you know, making it fun.
Joris: Yeah. That’s interesting. That’s really interesting. So I, yeah. I mean, you were talking about average order value. And so I found that site speed that can have an impact on any auto-good ways to increase the average order value.
Ian: Well, yeah, I mean, I mean, essentially, it’s either more expensive products where, or it’s more items per order. And so the more expensive products is where you’re trying to, you’re trying to push them to spend a bit more so things like Hey, you know you only spend another 10 pounds to get free delivery or if you spend 100 pounds, you get 20 pounds off 450 pounds, you get 40 pounds off. So you’re trying to encourage them to go or Hey, there’s a more expensive, better version of this product. Certainly coming in buying a battery with a three-car three-year guarantee, if you’re trying to get them to buy a four year one and you get bigger margin So, but the ones that are that we really see working consistently that are easy, are what we call the something called the sweetie page. And this is where there is a step between the shopping basket and the checkout or within the checkout. And essentially you’re just saying, hey, well sure here, you’re buying this particular thing, this dress, if you buy this scarf today with this order, normally it’s 30 pounds or 30 euros today, it’s 40 regularly, come back tomorrow it’ll be full price. And we get this such easy no brainer things to do.
And that’s where we said the checkout is actually quite robust. And if you think about last time you booked a flight, you know, by the time that you got you’ve chosen your seats and you’ve committed, you’re being sold car hire, holiday insurance, you know, transfer I mean God everything and because they know that you’re going to go ahead and place the order. And it’s the same, you know, the checkout is quite robust and it so we’re a big fan of trying to get them to buy little extra things that are, you know, small items, that there’s a reason to do it today because it’s cheaper. So that so their wants are the key and then often, depending on what you’re selling, but not an easy way to increase the average order size to get them to buy the same Again, particularly with men’s fashion, we find that men tend to buy the same thing.
So they’ll come and buy a navy blue jumper or a navy blue shirt, they’ll buy another navy blue shirt as well. And so you know, if you say hey, this is to buy one, get the second one-half price and she often sometimes doesn’t need to be that clever, but it depends on what you’re selling. You know, no one’s going to buy two car batteries, you know, at the same time, but they might buy the tool that helps you sit the car battery, but they may buy you know, two shirts that are the same. So it’s about getting into understanding the reason why people are buying those products in the first place, which helps. Yeah, but I think the yeah the multi by the upsells. The sweetie page one is something that we’re A big fan of the moment. I mean, it turned we’ve got one client got the switch page on this increase the average or divide by six pounds. So their average order value is about 102,200. hundred and eight. And it’s you know, it’s knocking on for half a million quids worth of additional revenue just from one little page in between the shop and checkout.
Joris: That’s not too bad. Yeah. And it doesn’t seem that much six pounds, but at the end of the year, money, of course, yeah.
Ian: Oh, yeah. Yeah, definitely.
Joris: Yeah. So what are the typical mistakes you see your clients make?
Typical eCommerce Mistakes
Ian: Well, I say there’s something that depends on what size of business they are. But I’d say the biggest thing that that I would, I always encourage eCommerce clients to do doesn’t matter whether or not you’re doing half a million, or you’re doing you know, 50 million the year You don’t they don’t exist in a vacuum and we call it the market square test. And we say to clients, right Imagine you’re walking into a market square and everyone in that market square is selling the same thing you are you know the whole what the stores laid out and you know and you’re back selling the same products and you more expensive your returns policy nonexistent your deliveries five days and you know and there’s no reason to buy today and the guys at the front again while I’m you know, I’m 10 pounds cheaper.
I am my delivery is free next day, you know, there’s a 365 day no cool returns policy. If you buy today, I’ll give you some little two-point cash on the next order. I’ll give you free delivery for the next one. So So get out there and look at who you up against. You don’t exist. It’s not like walking, it’s like walking down the high street and seeing every shop and ice, it’s on the same thing you are. And this is what online is like. So we call it you have to tap, you have to continually pass them on market square test. And, you know, monitor what’s happening. Yeah, we can begin to evaluate beauty got an equal, you’ve got to have something people want to buy, you know, you’ve got to be competitive, you know, and, and the, the value proposition and the offer architecture is really key. You know, you’ve got a really, really good work hard on that. Yeah.
Joris: So yeah, yeah, I like that. And I like the term Market Square test because, well, we call the column value proposition but usually they have it so I don’t know. abstract and vague too many people They’re like, should I really care about this? And it’s maybe a nice to have, but it isn’t it is. It is a must-have.
Ian: But yeah, yeah, exactly said yes. About the value proposition that you know, it’s, it’s, it’s like make or break and I think the businesses, eCommerce businesses that have really scaled have really understood that value proposition. And, you know, and also, you know, they haven’t fallen into the trap in it. Let’s say you’re doing a million pounds. You know, a lot of the times, you know, any commerce client will compare themselves to a massive brand and say, well, you know, Estee Lauder, they don’t have to, they don’t have to put free next day delivery on their, on there as a USP bar on their homepage.
They just got a big image. And it’s like, well, yeah, but they’ve got 60 million pounds worth of marketing. You no one knows who you are. So you can’t compare yourself to the Guys, you know, enough. One of the tricks we do, there’s a website called Wayback Machine and you where you can put, you can put a competitor’s site in there, and you can see what they were doing 10 years ago. And we always use the example of made.com and the furniture retailer. And if you look at what their homepage looked like, 10 years ago, it was very much around the no direct to consumer saving money, missing out the middleman. And now, of course, you look at it, and it isn’t saying that because they don’t need to because they’ve got this huge brand. And they’ve advertised all over London, London Underground, and, you know, so that’s all that’s, that’s always a good amount to get that down to the value proposition to, you know, getting it right, getting your offer architecture, correct.
Joris: Yeah, absolutely. This has been great. And we could definitely go on a nerd on for hours and hours. But yeah, we’re kind of Running out of time and I want to make sure that people know how they can find you. Yeah, or connect with you what’s the best place to do?
Ian: Yes, cool. Well, I mean, I think probably something we just we didn’t recent is really useful as we’ve done in a sort of a whole story of how we’ve taken the client to one to 10 million and, and all the little things that we did along the way and we put it into a really nice little video case study and it was an it’s quite a nice live easy watch, really. And it’s https://go.hammersleys.co.uk/get-started/. Get that, put it up, presumably put it in the show notes, and then we can turn it around. But yeah, that’s quite good. I mean, and obviously, on LinkedIn Ian Hammersley you can google me and I’ll or you can buy the book. They will put the links in the show notes. Yeah, absolutely. Share it prolifically on LinkedIn.
Joris: Alright, cool. Yeah. Thanks so much for being here Ian. It’s been absolutely great and super interesting. Thank you very much.
Ian: Yeah, awesome.