Edward Wimmer | Love What You’re Selling

You can help people and improve the world with your business… while still making money. Edward Wimmer’s Road ID product has literally saved lives and has allowed him to build a solid ecommerce company that’s been running strong for nearly 20 years.

Edward considers customers first with nearly every decision, and he says profits usually follow. A big part of that is the relationships he’s been able to form with his customers. It’s an essential part of how he’s able to compete with the big online retailers like Amazon.

We also chat about…

  • How to attract early adopters when you create a new product category
  • The best platform for new ecommerce businesses
  • A simple equation for growing your company beyond the startup phase
  • Why more traffic isn’t the solution when profits have plateaued
  • And more

Listen now…

Mentioned in This Episode: www.roadid.com

Episode Transcript:

Joris Bryon: Hey, this is Joris of the Ecommerce Excellence Podcast, and today, I’m really excited to talk to Edward Wimmer. Edward is the co-founder and CEO of ROAD iD, and he founded the company 20 years ago, which is, like, light years ago in ecommerce terms. That was in 1999, and he did that together with his dad and he grew the company into a company of 45 people. That’s pretty impressive. I’m sure we’ll pick up a few very interesting ideas to grow an ecommerce business today. Edward, welcome to the podcast. I’m really happy to have you here.

Edward Wimmer: Hey, Joris. It’s great to be here. Thank you for that introduction.

Joris Bryon: Cool. Yeah. I’d love for you to tell a little bit about your background. Where did you come from in your career and how did you get started with ROAD iD?

Edward Wimmer: Yeah, I’d be happy to do that. I love telling the founding story. So, if you’ll permit me a few minutes, I’ll get into that.

Joris Bryon: Sure.

Edward Wimmer: In terms of background, I grew up in a household where my dad was a lifelong entrepreneur. Not necessarily a successful one in terms of financial or making a lot of money, but in terms of loving what he did for a living, he was very successful. So, I knew from a time I was five, even before I could spell the word “Entrepreneur,” that I wanted to be one because dad always came home super excited about what he was doing in life.

So, you flash forward. I was 21 years of age, I was a college senior not really knowing what I was going to do with my professional life after I graduated school, and the other question I was asking myself is, “What am I going to do with my athletic life?” I was a soccer player, but I wasn’t talented enough to continue playing at a post-collegiate level. So, I was trying to figure out how do I keep myself active now that that is over, and it was at that point that some friends of mine that were on a cross country team said they were going to run a marathon, and I’m so glad that that moment happened because had it not been for that moment, ROAD iD wouldn’t exist today. I’ll tell you why.

So, I decided to train for a marathon with them. During that marathon training, I realized that you would run these long runs on the weekends, 16, 18 miles at a time on the weekends, and because I was a good son, I would make the obligatory calls home to the folks to let them know that I was still alive as I was away at college. During one of those calls, I was telling my dad about marathon training and the long runs on the weekends, and he just thought that was silly, “Why would anybody do that to themselves?” but he had a greater concern that I might get hurt while I was out there. Like, “What if you had an accident while you were out training and running all these miles? How would I, as your father, know that an accident happened?” Being 21 years of age and invincible at the time, I just dismissed my dad’s concern and went about marathon training.

Well, it was literally that weekend that I was almost hit by a pick-up truck. So, I’m on a country road watching this truck get closer and closer, going about 15 plus miles an hour because that was the speed limit, and I realized that he doesn’t see me. So, at the last minute, to avoid being hit, I jump off the road and I end up in a ditch on the side of the road, and from that ditch, I like to say that I had two very scary realizations.

The first being I could have been hit. I could’ve been fighting for my life, unconscious in a local hospital, and because I hadn’t heeded my dad’s warning of wearing an ID while out training, nobody would know who I was, who to contact, how to access medical information or any of that. I could literally be fighting for my life and nobody would be by my side because the hospital wouldn’t have the information they needed in order to make the appropriate communication.

The second, and I like to say way scarier realization that I had in that ditch is that for the first time in 21 years of life that I might actually have to admit that my dad was right about something.

So, that was terrifying, but also eye-opening, and so it was that experience of nearly being hit by that pick-up truck coupled with my dad’s concern for me training and not taking any ID with me that birthed the idea of wearable ID for athletes. So, our core product is an ID that you put on your wrist, on your shoes, around your neck that communicates who you are, who to contact, and how to access medical information in an emergency. Core audience: runners, cycles, triathletes. We started the company in 1999, so yeah, almost 20 years ago at this point. Makes us an ancient digital commerce, or ecommerce, company.

But we started with the dream that we would help just one person in an accident. So, we said, “We can make this wearable ID, and if it can help just one person, then all the blood, sweat, the tears, the effort, and the energy that we’re pouring into starting a business, … ” which I think many of your listeners can empathize with … It’s, like, the grind of getting going … ” … all that would be worth it.” But two jobs, the no money, the eating crappy food because we couldn’t afford good food, all that would be worth it just one person if we could help.

I’m really happy and humbled to report that today, it’s every day a customer is reaching out to us. At least one saying, “Thank God for my ROAD iD,” and they range in scope from the fairly simple accidents that a person holds up their wrist, they don’t want to talk because they’re in pain to customers that are reunited with their children at Disney, for example, because their kids are wearing the product to cyclists that say that they are alive today because they got the right help at the right time after being hit by a car to very sad, tragic stories where … We had a mom post on our Facebook page that because her son was wearing iD when he got hit by a car, that she got to make it to the hospital in enough time to hold her son’s hand and tell him she loved him one last time.

Joris Bryon: Wow.

Edward Wimmer: So, that … Not to take us to a sad place, but that, in a nutshell, covers the genesis of the company and how we got started. We put up our first website because we wanted an alternative way to take orders ’cause, at the time, it was phone, mail, or fax machine. If any of-

Joris Bryon: Yeah, I remember those. Yeah.

Edward Wimmer: … your listeners remember fax machines. Yeah. So, it was just going to be another way to take orders.

Joris Bryon: Mm-hmm (affirmative). I love that. Sorry. You’re basically in the ditch and you’re hit by the iD and you just get going, but on top of that, the whole fulfilling part of it, the whole … It must give a lot of satisfaction if you can be … well, contribute to saving so many lives and have an impact on so many people because at the end of the day, it is a small product, but it has a huge impact, and that must be very rewarding.

Edward Wimmer: Yeah, it definitely is. If I’m being honest, in those early years setting out to be an ecommerce owner, business owner, or entrepreneur, the goal was to make a lot of money. We wanted to get rich. Then, we heard our first story from a customer saying, “Because of this iD,” and I remember this story vividly and I remember how we received it, but because this high school cross country runner was wearing an iD, his family was able to get to him and see him in the hospital in a timely fashion. Everything ended up being fine. The high school athlete recovered from his injuries, but because he was wearing the ID, he was reunited with his family much quicker than he would have otherwise been. It was that point that my dad and I kind of looked at each other and said, “Wow. This goes beyond what we thought it was.”

Ever since then, it’s never been about the bottom line. It’s never been about making a lot of money. It’s always been about making a difference, which I think that looking at business through that lens has helped us tremendously. It’s certainly change the way we make decisions about things. Not every decision has to be a profit-based decision, and certainly should not be, especially when it pertains to taking care of your customers. We get to come to work every day, and my dad has since retired, but we get to come to work every day and work on something that could potentially have a very positive impact on somebody’s life tomorrow. So, that’s very rewarding and satisfying.

Joris Bryon: Yeah, I can imagine that that really gets you up in the morning. It makes probably also easier for hiring because you have a higher purpose and people are more willing to work for a company with a higher purpose and more willing to stay at that company as well. So, those are all range of benefits while practical benefits on top of it. But I think probably the most important part, of course, is the feeling that you get from it and the drive that you get from doing something so rewarding. So, basically, you invented a new product category. Am I right?

Edward Wimmer: That’s right.

Joris Bryon: Yeah.

Edward Wimmer: I often talk about that. It would have been a lot easier row to hoe if we were launching an ecommerce business that had a … was a new way of selling an existing product. There was a little bookseller called Amazon.com that entered the space, and not too long before we did, that was just looking at selling books in a different way. So, we had the challenge of also creating a product category and trying to figure out the ecommerce landscape.

Joris Bryon: Yeah. That’s not an easy thing because a lot of ecommerce entrepreneurs, when they start out, they start with Google Ads, and that’s the easy thing because you can basically tap into very relevant searches that have a high purchase intent, but yeah, if people don’t know your product exists, they don’t search for it. So, yeah. In your opinion, what are the biggest challenges to inventing a new product category?

Edward Wimmer: I think it’s demand generation of lead generation is always the most challenging thing. You’ve got to show somebody that a need … that there’s a need that they don’t even realize that they have. So, in our particular instance, we had a product that solved the problem, but we also had the challenge of communicating that there was a need for it. That’s tough, especially when you’re broke. We started the company with two credit cards that each had a $5,000 limit, so all we had was $10,000 of startup capital to start this. So, it was very challenging to get the word out.

So, we started with little one-inch ads in the back of print publications, like Runners World and Bicycling and Triathlete magazine and even some publications that no longer exist, but little tiny, one-inch ad in their marketplace section in the back. When you only have one-inch by three and a half or three inches or so to tell a story about a product, you really have to rely on those very early adopters that just intrinsically get it. So, we were lucky that enough people got it, but the challenge has always been, and will continue to be until we are as ubiquitous as a seatbelt, will be in communicating that there is a need for every person to wear iD because you never know when an accident or emergency will strike.

So, I think the biggest lesson that I’ve learned in creating a product category is to just keep moving forward. You’re going to take some hits and some licks and you’re going to test some things that don’t work, but if you believe in what you’re doing, if you believe that the product that you are bringing to market is so valuable that you have to work really hard to sell it, then you won’t give up and you just keep moving forward until you find something that works. We’ve tested every marketing channel that there is in the last 20 years from print to digital to television to radio and podcast. You name it, we’ve tested it. The real trick is in figuring out which channels are going to work and then focusing on them with obsession.

Joris Bryon: Yep. Yeah, that’s interesting advice. That’s also, I believe, the point. They’re making a book called Traction. I don’t remember the name of the author right now, but it’s … There’s just a certain amount of channels. Try a few out and then if you figure out which one works best for you, then go all in on that one, and then move on to the next. So, you’ve been around for a long time in the ecommerce, but what do you believe are two to three keys to grow an ecommerce business in today’s environment?

Edward Wimmer: Well, I think, in many ways, it’s a lot easier to grow an ecommerce business in today’s environment than it was when we started 19 years ago, 19, 20 years ago.

Joris Bryon: Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Edward Wimmer: I think a lot has changed, so my advice today is different than it would have been even two or three years ago. It’s going to be hard to narrow it down to two or three, Joris. I’ll give it my best from a technology perspective.

From a technology perspective, you absolutely have to be on the correct platform. So, if you have a product that is selling in a tradition dot com landscape, meaning that you’re not exclusively a marketplace seller on Amazon, eBay, or Etsy or something like that, you need to be on the right platform. I contend that the right platform is absolutely Shopify. Shopify’s doing a great job of democratizing ecommerce. If there are people listening and you’re trying to figure out, “I’ve got a thing that I want to sell and I don’t know how to do it,” just go get a Shopify store, and you can teach yourself in a matter of hours how to launch a product. It really made it simple for you.

But on top of that, there’s hundreds of thousands of stores on this platform, so if you’re not … Amazon is setting the conventions and trends for mega-commerce automators, but Shopify is setting the trends in the conventions for smaller ecomm stores. So, even if you don’t know it, you’ve likely shopped on many ecommerce stores, and because of that and the way that they do business, they are building conventions. They are training consumers to shop in a certain way, especially with the checkout experience. The checkout experience across all Shopify stores are the same, so it’s something that you get accustomed to, so it really minimizes abandonment. Because there’s hundreds of thousands of stores, consumers are learning how to interact with the Shopify network.

On top of that, they have a really strong network of app developers that are extending the capabilities of their platform. So, together with the app network and the platform itself, they are really going to pave the way for what’s next to come in ecommerce. They are going to set those conventions that you want to be able to take advantage of if you are an ecommerce store owner. So, be on the best platform, take advantage of the apps that are being built that may help you connect with your consumers better.

So, that would be advice number one, and I’m really jealous of stores that are starting today because 19 years ago, there wasn’t such thing as a Shopify or a Magento or a WooCommerce or a BigCommerce. Those things didn’t exist, so we had to build our platform, and because we’re a custom product, even when these platforms started coming out, we weren’t able to take advantage of them because we had too many custom needs that the platform couldn’t extend to. Now, platforms like Shopify, and Shopify specifically, gives us the ability to extend the platform to meet our needs, which means that we no longer have the need to have an in-house team of seven or eight software engineers. Now, Shopify does that work for us. So, really cool platform. You absolutely should take advantage of it.

The second thing I would say is from a business perspective, that anybody doing ecommerce should really write this down because this is so simple and so basic, yet so powerful. It’s that’s ecommerce can really be distilled down to a simple equation, and that equation is sessions times conversion rate times average order value equals revenue, and it sounds so brainlessly simple, but so many people in the ecommerce space don’t see or understand or even know or recognize that. But when you do recognize that ecommerce is as simple as session, conversion rate, and average order value, that then helps you have relentless focus on those three main variables.

So, to break that down for the listeners a bit. If you’re a store doing 100,000 monthly visits and your conversion rate is two percent and your average order value is 50, well, then it’s easy to calculate your revenue. Your revenue’s going to be $100,000. But if you’re able to focus on conversion rate and average order value, let’s say those are the two of the three variables that are easy enough for you to move in your business, let’s say you’re able to move conversion rate from two percent to three percent and average order value from $50 to $55, your monthly revenue just went from 100K to 165K, and that’s a 65% increase.

So, I think what a lot of ecommerce entrepreneurs end up getting stuck in is they get stuck in the rat race of trying to bring more people into the funnel. We’ve got to go out and we’ve got to find more sessions or more customers and get more links to the site, and that can be exhausting, but if you’ve already built a business that is experiencing traffic, perhaps the best thing to focus on is conversion rate or average order value or maybe both. I think your agency spends a fair amount of time working on conversion rate, so this is something that I know you guys understand. So many people-

Joris Bryon: Yeah.

Edward Wimmer: … forget it.

Joris Bryon: Yeah, absolutely. What you’re telling me right now is right up my alley. This is exactly what we preach on our side as well, this exact formula. We actually add another one to it, and that’s frequency, so purchase frequency. If you can keep your existing visitors coming back for more, that’s usually a very easy way to increase your revenue as well. But so many ecommerce entrepreneurs, they get stuck in that mindset of, “I need more visitors, I need more traffic, I need more sessions, and I’m going to try another channel to get more sessions.” Then, they end up adding more traffic, but it’s not as relevant, not as … They don’t have the same buying intent.

They spend a lot of money on it, but it just doesn’t work out because they keep forgetting about conversion rate and average order value. But the thing is, in my experience from working with so many ecommerce entrepreneurs, the reason why that happens is they started out with traffic and traffic got them to a certain point and they get blindsided somehow. They’re like, “Oh, okay. It’s traffic, traffic, traffic. I need more sessions because that’s how I grew quickly,” but you’re always going to plateau if you’re only focusing on traffic and never pull those other levers of … Yeah … to grow your revenue.

So, I’m really happy you bring up that point because that’s sometimes a little bit of a frustration on our end because we work a lot on everything except for the traffic, like just really … You can call it conversion optimization, but for us, it’s like working with the traffic that you already have, and that includes increasing average order value and increasing the frequency. Yeah. You’re absolutely right.

Edward Wimmer: Yeah. It seems so simple, but so many people miss it. I agree with you on the frequency side of things. So, this is the number one equation in my mind: sessions, conversion rate, average order value, revenue. Get that right, get that dialed in. Make sure that somebody is focusing on those three metrics every day. If you’re not big enough to do it every day, make sure you’re thinking about it at least once a week. If you’re not big enough to be thinking about it once a week, then you’re probably in startup mode and your hair’s on fire and you don’t have time to do anything, but moment you have time to focus on sessions, conversion rate, average order value, you must do it or your business will struggle.

But on the back end of things, I absolutely agree, frequency, lifetime value, and referred revenue are two other very important things. Get the top ones right first, then also be working really hard to make sure that you’re developing a relationship with your customers, they come back and they can buy more from you in the future and that they love you so much they want to share with you with their sphere of influence. So, that’s the referred revenue piece.

Joris Bryon: Yeah.

Edward Wimmer: I’d say, moving on from that, my third key would be to love what you’re selling. Love it so much that you think that you would be doing the world a disservice if you didn’t figure out how to make money off of the product that you’re selling. For us, that’s pretty easy because we have this product that is making a positive impact in lives, and in some cases, saving them, and in other cases, giving folks the opportunity to say, “Goodbye,” to a loved one. So, that’s really easy to get behind. But you’ve got to find the love in the product that you’re doing; otherwise, when your business hits hard times, which every business eventually does, when your business hits hard times, you’re going to find it a lot easier to give up. Or when you’re trying to start out and you’re having trouble getting traction, you’re going to find it a lot easier to give up. But if you look at what you’re selling from the perspective that the world needs it, and so it’s your obligation to bring it to them and to sell it to them at a place where you can make a profit, then that perseverance will naturally be there.

My final piece of advice would be obsess about the customers, obsess, obsess, obsess. Here at ROAD iD, our stated goal is “Deliver a product, service, and journey, …” customer journey, ” … so blindingly awesome that your customers can’t help but share it.” Word of mouth has always been and will always be the most powerful growth lever that a business has. Think about brands that have seemingly exploded overnight just recently. I think about Allbird Shoes or ThirdLove and what they’ve done in the bra space or Pura Vida and their bracelets. These brands seem to be everywhere all the time and you seem to hear about them just as quickly as they launch.

Well, do they have effective digital marketing campaigns? For sure. A network of influencers? Yeah, probably. But they are growing like crazy, not because their marketing is on point, they are growing like crazy because their customers love them, and when your customers love you, they advocate for you, they promote for you, they evangelize for you.

I like to refer to this as knife fight customer service because we’ve had an experience in the past where we got slammed, our product and service got slammed in a pretty popular cycling forum, and before we had the opportunity to reply, hundreds of our customers came to our defense and said, “No, dude. You got this all wrong. ROAD iD is an amazing company. You’ve got your information wrong. Just reach out to them and they’ll take care of you.” So, we coined the phrase knife fight customer service after that because we felt like we’ve done so well by our customers that they would show up to a knife fight for us if they needed to.

Especially in this era where you’ve got giant automators like Amazon who compete on convenience, you can’t compete on convenience. You’re not going to beat Amazon with convenience. If you try, you’re going to lose, so you’ve got to connect with your customers on a more emotional level, and that’s your story, that’s why you exist, that’s the length that you go to serve them and make sure that their happy, and if you get that product, service, and journey dialed in and on point and something that’s remarkable, and when I say, “Remarkable,” I just don’t mean that it’s great, I mean that it’s remark-worthy, somebody’s willing to share and talk about you. When you get that right, your customers will grow your brand for you.

Joris Bryon: Awesome. I absolutely love that advice. You have four keys to grow your ecommerce. Any 5th one or those are the four?

Edward Wimmer: In the essence of time here, we’ll probably keep it at four, but if we had more time, I would go on. But I think those are four good ones that-

Joris Bryon: Definitely.

Edward Wimmer: … as people running responsible businesses, we need to focus on. We need to get the technology right. We need to understand our metrics and how to achieve profitable success. We need to love what we’re selling and we need to really obsess about the customer experience.

Joris Bryon: Yeah, and that sums it up very nicely. So, you obsess about the customer experience. Can you give any examples of what you exactly do?

Edward Wimmer: So, I think there’s a lot of things that go into nailing the customer experience, and one of them is as simple and as difficult as making sure that in your ecommerce journey, that any question the customer has is answered for them as they explore your product. So, if you’re selling t-shirts and a question that somebody’s going to have is, “I wonder how this is going to fit my body type.” Everywhere in your experience where a question … where you could see a question mark hovering over a customer’s head, that’s where you need to provide an answer. You need to provide the answer in the descriptions or in videos or in product photos, in tool tips next to the sizing variant selection. You need to answer all the questions.

The second thing that I would maintain is that you need to be reachable. Your phone number needs to be very easy. Your customer service email address needs to be very easy to find. Even your physical address. People need to know that you’re real and you’re grounded somewhere in the world. Live chat. All these things that make it easy for people to get ahold of you need to be front and center and exposed to them, not just in your web experience, but also in your emails.

Speaking of emails, don’t send your emails from [email protected] or [email protected] Send them from a person. All the emails at ROAD iD go out from [email protected], and that’s for two reasons. One is that we believe that consumers do not want to buy from businesses. They want to buy from people. So, at every touchpoint, we try to act like people and not like a company. So, emails come from [email protected] That connects them back to a person at this company and not a team, connecting to a person. But it also encourages them to reply.

In some emails, we actually will reinforce that because we’ve all been trained by every brand in the world that we should not reply to transactional messages because they’re going to end up in this abyss of digital communication, but we encourage people to reply. But you have to close that loop. You actually have to be on the other end answering those emails in a timely fashion. So, acting like people, I can’t understate the importance of that in really getting the customer experience right. One additional way that we do this is when we ship you your package, inside the package, we have this thing called a fulfillment business card. The fulfillment business card is a postcard-sized mailer, or a postcard-sized piece of printed material, that tells you a bit about the person that packed your order.

So, I just reached over on my desk and I happen to have one handy. Nanette is a … works on our fulfillment team. So, you learn about Nanette. You learn where she was raised, the pet that she has at home, her first concert, which was Journey, her favorite color, which is green, celebrity crush, she’s had crushes on both Mark Wahlberg and Katy Perry, her guilty pleasures, chocolate-covered pretzels, and a few additional bits of detail. Then, on the back is a little hand-written note from Nanette that says, “I hope your new gear empowers you to do more of what you love. I’ve been here for a couple years now and love the people and product. I hope you enjoy your new ROAD iD. Nanette.”

So, the bulk of that message is pre-printed so Nanette doesn’t have to write a custom letter every time that she sends out a package, but the point is is that we are connecting a shipment back to a person, and that is vitally important. So, if you think about your recent ecommerce experiences in getting packages to show up at your front door, there’s that hit of dopamine that’s there, like, “Oh, that thing I ordered’s finally here,” and you tear open the box, but not for a minute have you given any consideration to the person that put those items in that box for you, that put the label on the box, that took time out of their day to tape that box up for you so that you could be happy when it shows up at your front porch.

So, we take that opportunity to say, “No, there is somebody at ROAD iD. Her name is Nanette that put this together for you and tried to do it with the upmost level of care so that you got exactly what you ordered when you wanted it.” So, at every touchpoint, whether it be in the coffee that you write on your website or how you send out your emails or how you deliver your packages or how you frame up your marketing message, a brand should always be acting like people because that’s who customers want to buy from.

Joris Bryon: Oh, that’s very powerful advice. I love that. Yeah. I see we’re almost running out of time, but maybe before we go, one question I really love to ask is, “What’s the biggest mistake you made?”

Edward Wimmer: Biggest mistake. We made lots of them. We had … One of the biggest financial mistakes that we made is we invested about a half a million dollars into an Expo experience. So, what we tried to do is minify everything we do at HQ and put it into a 30-foot trailer and show up at running and cycling events so that we could sell our product on-site. We spent a lot of effort. This is back in the day when all of our technical platform was custom, so we had custom-built an ordering process that people could do on touchscreen monitors that would send the order inside the trailer, it would get laser-engraved within minutes, and we’d be handing the finished product out of the window to them.

So, it just didn’t work. It just, financially, didn’t work. It was very expensive to move from event to event. It took 9 or 10 people to staff the thing, so we could be out of pocket 20, $30,000 just to show up to an event. So, you have to sell a lot of $20 product in order to make that work. I think if we were smart enough, if I looked back and say, “What was the big mistake here?” is that we just did it all on gut, which is how we like to move as entrepreneurs. We just said, “This thing is going to work. Dam the torpedoes. We’re going to figure it out.” Had we done some simple financial calculations ahead of time, we would have said, “You know what? It can’t be this big. It can’t be 20 feet by 30 feet in an Expo environment. It can’t take nine people. How do we make it smaller and more nimble to make it work?”

So, financially, one of our biggest mistakes, but one of the things it did do on the positive side of things that I think all ecommerce brands need to figure out a way to do is to get in front of our customers. We, for the first time, were able to stand face-to-face and shake hands with and talk to and understand what made our customers tick. Being in front of them at an Expo environment gave us the opportunity to see how they put our product on their wrist, how it made them feel. We learned things about our online shopping experience that we didn’t know because we were able to watch them go through the process of ordering an iD. We learned things about the way our wrist bands fit on certain people’s wrists that we didn’t understand.

So, while financially it was a disaster, it helped us … it reinforced, perhaps for the first time ever, that we really need to get out in front of our customers. We need to meet them face-to-face. We need to talk to them on a regular basis. So, perhaps that’s another lesson for the ecommerce folks that are listening to this, that if you are strictly digital commerce and you don’t currently have a way to interact with your customers, then you need to find a way to do that.

Joris Bryon: That’s a great piece of advice to wrap this episode up. Hey, Edward, this has been super awesome, super interesting stuff, very hands-on, and you can just tell that you have those 20 years of experience. We could probably go on for a couple more hours, but yeah, we’re running out of time. Before we go, I just want to make sure that people know how they can find you, how they can find ROAD iD, order a product, of course, where they can learn more about you. What’s the best place for people to connect with you?

Edward Wimmer: ROAD iD is at ROADiD.com. That’s R-O-A-D I-D dot com. We are also at ROAD iD and on all the relevant social platforms. You can hit me up on Instagram. I am @EdwardWimmer4. The four is because I’m the 4th. So, that’s EdwardWimmer4 on Instagram. I think that’s it.

Joris Bryon: Okay, perfect. Thank you so much for being here, Edward. It’s been super. Thanks.

Edward Wimmer: I appreciate the time. Thanks for bringing me on the show.