04 Jun Dennis Moons | The Evolution of Google Ads
Google has a tremendous power to transform your ecommerce business, admits Dennis Moons, who’s spent millions on the ad network. But it’s up to you to make sure they’re using that power in the right way and not taking too much control of your campaigns.
Automation that seems to make things easier could actually be sabotaging sales, says Dennis. He talks about what to keep a close eye on to make sure that doesn’t happen, as well as…
- How you can leverage the latest trends in Google Ads
- The low-down of the new smart shopping campaign features
- Where Google hides results and conversion stats
- The best way to show clients the results you get for them
- And more…
Mentioned in This Episode: www.storegrowers.com
Joris Bryon: Hey, this is Joris of the Ecommerce Excellence Podcast. Today I’m really excited to talk to Dennis Moons. Dennis is the owner of Store Growers, and he has been working with more than over 60 e-commerce companies in the last eight years. And together with them, he spent millions on advertising. He’s a real Google Ads ninja, and he also runs a Google Shopping training. So I’m sure we’re going to pick up very useful insights about Google Ads, about PPC, and e-commerce in general.
Dennis, welcome to the podcast, really happy to have you here.
Dennis Moons: Yeah, Joris, thanks for the invite.
Joris Bryon: Yeah, happy to have my first fellow Belgian on the podcast. That’s great. Before we get started, I’d love for you to tell everybody a bit about your background, what you come from in your career, so our listeners can understand a little bit more about you, and how did you get started in digital marketing, how did you get to this point where you’re expert in Google Ads for e-commerce.
Dennis Moons: Yeah, long story, but we’ll keep it short here. After graduating from university and doing a short internship abroad, I really didn’t have a good idea on what to do next. I saw my friends were working in jobs that they didn’t really like. So I thought, “What do I want to do at this point?” I did some internships in digital marketing, so I thought, “Why not help clients with their digital marketing.” So that’s what I started doing.
I actually started doing SEO for clients, and that slowly evolved. That was about eight years ago. I’ve always chosen whatever crossed my path and I found most interesting to learn from, and also use my strengths. I focused more on that. Right around that time, after doing some SEO projects, I came into a client and they were also doing PPC. That introduced me to the world of Google Ads and other networks. I really liked it. I really liked the fact that you could really, in comparison to SEO where everything is, you do something now and it might or might not result in results in six months or 12 months’ time.
With PPC it’s a lot more direct, like you switch on campaigns today, and in 10 minutes there will be traffic coming onto the website. You can see exactly what’s happening. And that’s especially true for e-commerce. There it’s, you drive people to the website, and a bit later you know if the campaign works or doesn’t work. I really love this. It makes it really accountable, sometimes really stressful as well, working with big clients and big budgets. But it’s something that keeps you on the edge, like you can’t be as a client. They just look at their stats, and they know if what you’re doing is valuable or not. That’s why I really got into PPC and e-commerce, and have been for the last couple of years.
Joris Bryon: I think you make a point there, that PPC is almost instant gratification from what you’re doing, as opposed to SEO. I mean, you open up a campaign and you see traffic rolling in. But more importantly what I find gratifying working with e-commerce is that you see money coming in. It’s so much more fun to do something for e-commerce, because you see the money coming in. Whereas, if you work for a lead generation site, I mean that can be exciting as well, of course, but it’s a number of leads. And of course, you can add a monetary value to a lead, but it’s not the same, right?
Dennis Moons: No, no, definitely not. With PPC and e-commerce in general, the effort is tied to the results. But with things like lead generation, the cycle is usually a lot longer, and there is a lot more things where, or the client is not sophisticated enough that they understand what needs to happen in order to turn those leads into money, or it’s … In the past, I’ve worked with clients where it could take up to two years for a lead to turn into an actual big customer. In that time in between, you also know you get less feedback on what’s really working. You’re right, that interaction between effort and results, it’s a lot shorter, that feedback cycle, which makes it a lot more interesting. Yeah.
And it helps you to improve, because I think with SEO, you could go to a client and tell them, “Yeah, you need to invest in content. You need to work on your SEO.” You can work on a project pretty much full-time for three months, and you won’t get that feedback straight away. It will take time, so if something goes wrong or your approach isn’t 100%, well, you need the client to believe in your approach. So if you’re not 100% sure of what you’re doing, I find it hard to also sell to clients. In that sense, it’s also easier for clients to convince them.
Joris Bryon: Yeah, absolutely. I think that’s one of the beauties of Google Ads. You’ve been doing this for a very long time now, and you’re a true expert at Google Ads. What are some common mistakes you see online stores make when it comes to Google Ads? I’m really trying to be disciplined here and say Google Ads and now AdWords, because it’s so, in my brain, it’s AdWords, it’s AdWords. So it’s Google Ads, let’s say Google Ads, from now.
What are some common mistakes you see online stores make?
Dennis Moons: Yeah. It has evolved, the mistakes people make. The essence is trusting Google too much. That’s the main mistake. And how that comes out, it has evolved a little bit. But with Google Ads, and all of the other networks are also going into that direction, it’s always a question of controlling your bids, your keywords, the searches, and automation. In Google’s ideal world, you just give them money, and they will give you sales. They will decide how to spend that money, where to spend it, who to show it to, and you will just get the end results. I don’t know if they will make a guarantee at that point or not.
The challenge is in always finding that balance between control and using the automation. Because it’s clear, Google has a ton of data. They have a ton of artificial intelligence or machine learning that they can use to really optimize your campaigns. But you want to make sure that they use that intelligence and that they use that power in areas where it makes sense.
Let me give you a good example. For example, with Google Shopping, it’s a way to actually transform your product information into an ad. You don’t create the actual ad. You just give Google all of the information, and they decide what information to put. So sometimes they will put free shipping. Sometimes they will put the customer reviews. Sometimes they will talk about sales tax not being charged or things like that. That’s kind of an automation. It’s a pretty basic automation, but it works.
Then you have another trend, and for example, it’s Smart Shopping campaign. This is something new.
Joris Bryon: Can you explain a little bit what it is, the Smart Shopping campaign, because it is relative new. A few weeks ago it was launched?
Dennis Moons: Yeah, yeah, yeah. It’s still pretty new. Right now, Google Shopping is you show your ads in the actual search results. With Smart Shopping, Google says like, “Okay, we have a lot more inventory, a lot more places where we can show your ads than just in the search results.” These are things like all of the advertisers in their display network or YouTube, as well. And they are saying like, “Okay, just tell us your budget, and then we will show the ads where we think it will lead to conversions.” But there is no guarantee there. From going to your search results pages, where people are really, they want to find something. They are looking for a product, and they want to see the product, you suddenly go to people browsing on a news website, like reading an article, and having your ads there. It’s a totally different mindset.
And in my opinion, this is no something that should be mixed. To me, this is an example of automation in Google Ads that goes a little bit too far and takes away too much control. It’s still possible to have a lot of control and to decide where your ads are showing and stuff. With all these new trends and new options, yeah, Google goes the other way. The tough thing about it is a lot of people will start with Google Ads, and they will have no idea that actually Google is doing these things behind the scenes, because often, these are the default options. If you’re not sure what you’re doing, and you just click and follow along, follow their tutorial, you’ll actually opt into a lot of these automation things that you shouldn’t.
That’s a nasty feeling, I think, for a lot of people. Because when I mention this to them, a lot of them are like, “Wait, that wasn’t the point,” or “That’s not what we wanted to do.” Yeah. So I would say, that is the biggest mistake with Google. You have to be skeptical, but also trusting. And it’s finding that balance. As someone new to Google Ads, it’s difficult to make that judgment.
Joris Bryon: Yeah, absolutely. Do those starter campaigns still exist? I did a lot of Google Ads years ago, and then once in a while you came across an account where they still had a starter campaigns, something just automatically made by Google. Usually it doesn’t make any money, well, not for the advertiser, but makes Google a lot of money. Do they still exist?
Dennis Moons: In a kind of different form. By default, if you go through the setup, you will actually also opt in. If you set up like a search campaign, you will also opt into the display network. I came across an account, even a couple of months ago, and this was somebody that was spending a ton of money. Then when we saw how much money they were actually spending on the Google search results versus the display network, where they didn’t know they were appearing, it was, I think, like 45% of the budget was being spent on the display network. And then they look at it, and they see like, “Okay, the money I’m putting in, and the money that’s coming out, it’s not making sense.” But Google hides that little fact. They don’t break it out into the reports by default. It’s somewhere in the little menu hidden away. If you don’t know where to look, you’re not going to see it. It’s a tricky thing.
Joris Bryon: Yeah, it is. You mentioned automation, but that’s automation by Google, of course. Are there any tools out there that you worked with that you would recommend to automate some part of the management of your campaigns?
Dennis Moons: Yeah. There is a couple … it’s a question, as you said, there is automation by Google and the things they do, which is always, they are really tight. They’re not going to check if … Google tries to make more money for themselves. So when it comes to automation and optimization, I try to think that you’re, as an advertiser, you’re just a cog in their machine, in their machine to make sure there’s as much money coming out as possible. You’re right that there’s other platforms that are more objective.
I find it a bit hit and miss on the quality of these tools, because a lot of them will claim there’s machine learning involved or artificial intelligence. When you actually look at the results, it’s a lot less impactful. A tool that I’ve used is Optimizer, which helps you with the bid management. Because the larger your … As someone who has been doing this for a long time, I always like to keep a lot of the control, so I won’t go for a lot of the special bidding strategies and the special options that Google offers. I will use these bid management tools to help to set these things to a level where I’m comfortable giving up a little bit of control there.
Joris Bryon: I think it’s a difficult trade off, how much do you automate the bid management tools, and how much do you do manually? Any recommendations on that? I mean, I notice a lot of people … especially if tools start to mention, like you said, “Oh, machine learning, AI,” you have to use that word now to sell your tool. I don’t see a lot of people that trust it and think like, “Oh, this is going to be easy. I’m just going to add this tool to it, and it’s going to go on auto-pilot. I don’t have to do anything.”
When would you say, are those tools interesting? Does your store have to be investing a certain amount of money per month? Or does it need a certain amount of products so that it becomes almost unmanageable without having external tools? What’s your opinion on that?
Dennis Moons: Yeah. I think a big part of giving out or automating is in, you can’t not know anything about it, and then just add a tool and hope things will be alright. You have to know your baseline from before you’re using the tool, whether you’re doing it manually or working with an agency, or someone in-house, or something, that helps you. So you have to have a baseline of before, and then when you add the tool, it’s just going to be like what change is being made. Is it decreasing my cost? Is it increasing the profitability? Is it raising the amount of sales? And then it’s just a question of, is the return there?
For smaller accounts, let’s say you’re spending around $1000 a month, I think it’s still adding a tool to that, which could easily cost you, the ones I was talking about, could easily cost you $200 or something. That’s a big extra. If you have to pay someone to manage your accounts on top of that, you’re going to be spending more money on tools and people than you’re actually investing in your ad budget. Obviously, the more you spend, the more interesting it can be. If you’re spending 10 or 15 thousand dollars a month, having a $500 a month tool might seem very expensive. But if it can deliver the results that it’s promising, it will probably make its money back, straight away.
I think being skeptical going in, knowing your numbers before, like the return on ad spend that you’re getting, your conversion volume, your CPA, and then just comparing in the fact after. I think that’s a good way to go into these things.
Joris Bryon: Yeah, absolutely. That makes sense. You already touched upon it partly now, by saying, “Hey, if you spend $1000 a month, and you take into account the people working on it as well.” Do you have any guidelines on that, like how much time should you be spending on your Google Ads account? I mean, I speak to a lot of e-commerce companies. Some of them do it in-house. Some of them even have someone full-time in-house. Some of them outsource it to agencies or to freelancers. There is a whole lot of opinions out there one how much time you should be spending on your Google Ads account. What’s yours on that?
Dennis Moons: Yeah. I think a big part, and something that I also see with my clients, is trying to, is knowing how important is Google Ads. I have a couple of clients who get 8% of their sales through Google Ads. Well, if you have a team of let’s say five people working from the sales that those campaigns generate, you can’t afford for it to pause or go through a dip or something. You need to be on top of it. That means probably going in every day or at least every couple of days, monitoring that performance and then doing regular routine optimization work to keep improving that account. First not to do anything wrong, and then keep improving the account.
For other clients, it’s more … Google Ads is an extra that they have. They have a solid business foundation with using affiliates, getting a lot of organic traffic, and they are adding a layer of paid traffic on top of that. It doesn’t mean that it’s not important for them, but it’s less vital as a business. So there you can probably be a little less hands on, and maybe check it once a week. Of course, this depends on the budget. If you’re spending a hundred K a month, you’re probably going to be in there every day or so. Just as a rule of thumb, a little bit, how important is it if you get more than 50% of your sales from it, you probably should be on top of that.
Joris Bryon: Yeah, okay. Yeah, that makes sense. Are there any features in Google Ads that you see that most people don’t use but should be using?
Dennis Moons: The biggest one actually … I’ve kind of specialized in Google Shopping these last couple of years, because I saw with a lot of both advertisers, but also with a lot of freelancers and agencies, that people didn’t really know how to use it effectively. The way Google introduced Google Shopping, and the way people have set up their campaign is that they have one campaign targeting all kinds of searches with a single bid. But the thing is that not all searches … Google is search based, so people type in a keyword and see your ad appearing. So you don’t want to be paying the same amount for every search.
Joris Bryon: Sure.
Dennis Moons: Not every search is equally valuable. A quick example, I was just doing some research on luggage. Somebody that types in luggage isn’t as valuable as someone that types in Samsonite carry-on, for example. If you’re selling Samsonite products, the second search is going to be a lot more valuable than that first one. By default, it seems that you are not able to make this difference with Google Shopping. But there is a way to have multiple campaigns and use the settings and negative keywords in a different way, to actually target these searches with a different bid. That’s something that I found the most valuable thing.
On actually how to do it, it gets a bit technical, but I’m sure we can include a link in the show notes or something that takes you through the process on how to set it up. I’ve seen just from doing that, the best results in the last year, helping people do that.
Joris Bryon: Yeah. I think you explain that very clearly in your training course, as well. I believe that’s on StoreGrowers.com, and I don’t know the exact URL, but if people go there, there’s a clear link to the training course there, as well. That makes sense, because Google Shopping shows it all on one big pile, and only when you start fine tuning that, you’re going to see much better returns from it.
We’ve already talked about big mistakes you see your clients make or e-commerce make, in general, with Google Ads. Is there any big mistake you made personally?
Dennis Moons: Yeah. By big mistake, it’s less of a specific thing, but more something that has happened a couple of times already. That’s staying with a failed business, and keep investing money and resources in it. I’ve had it in the past, just trying to get up and running in the early days, even trying my hand at affiliate websites and those type of things. They can be like fun projects, especially if you don’t have a lot of clients to work with in the beginning. It’s easy to spend a lot of time and money in these projects without really being diligent on cutting the cord. This is something that I’ve been trying to do a little better of, of looking at a business and then deciding if it’s worth investing more or not.
It’s hard, because the online space, especially if you rely on channels like SEO and stuff, it takes time to build. I have websites that I had written off, and two, three years later they start doing very well, because they get picked up and they get the right links. So it’s hard, because I know that can happen, it’s hard to say no to projects that aren’t successful today but might be in the future. It’s learning that balance. I think that’s been my main mistake, spending too much time on stuff that’s going nowhere.
Joris Bryon: Yeah. I think, well, you’re an entrepreneur. I’m one. A lot of entrepreneurs I talk to, we kind of have a restless entrepreneur syndrome thingy, where we always think of, “Oh, yeah, that could be an interesting idea. Oh, that’s a nice business. Maybe you should try this. Maybe you could try that.” But you already have a business, and it’s better to invest all of your time that you have on the one that’s working out, instead of trying a bunch of things out and thinking, “Oh, maybe it’s going to work out,” and try that. Sometimes it’s a little more better to focus all of your attention on what’s already working.
I know that, this is a nice switch to the next question, I know that a few months ago, you also started your own store. And it was more as an experiment. Can you tell me a bit about that?
Dennis Moons: Yeah. I think it’s like a year and half or something ago.
Joris Bryon: Oh, really.
Dennis Moons: Yeah. I started a store called Apes In Space. With that I sell space posters.
Joris Bryon: Of apes?
Dennis Moons: No, no, of things that happen in space. There is actually very few good pictures of apes being launched into space. If not, I would of course have to sell them.
Joris Bryon: That would be very niche.
Dennis Moons: I mainly started, as you said, it was an experiment. It was mainly a way for me to disclose a little bit more information on what goes on behind the scenes of an e-commerce business, and also Google Ads in specific. Because I share, in my articles and in my course, I share a lot of details. I always check with clients before disclosing information, and few of them, actually none of them, are comfortable, which is totally understandable, with me disclosing information, maybe not about costs, but especially about revenue. Because it’s such a competitive business, and if you know that your competitor is spending this and making that much, well, it makes it so much easier for competitors to start doing the same.
I wanted a place where I didn’t have to blur any screenshots, and where I could just show the realities. Because the places where we usually … and I’ve also been guilty of this, where we do show results, is in case studies. So we say, “Okay, we managed to grow sales with that much.” Or “We increased return on ad spend by 50%.” This is the good news. But very often, things you try are not going to result in those increases.
Joris Bryon: Yeah, there is a lot of struggle before you reach to that point. I think in the blog post that you wrote about it as well, you’re very transparent about it, Joris. That was refreshing, I think.
Dennis Moons: Yeah. It was tough, so to go back to it. I started doing monthly updates. But I think almost a year in, these posts were exactly the same, not much was different month to month. I was doing the same, pretty much of the same things. Sales were not picking up. The things that I was trying were not working. First of all, it bummed me out. Then I thought like, “Yeah, nobody wants to read it.”
On the other hand, that’s the struggle. If you start a new business, you will go through, unless you’re one of the crazy success stories, you will go through a long period where you’re just trying to figure things out. To be honest, the longer that this went on, the more I started looking into what wasn’t going right. That actually led me to an interesting realization. The way I created posters, it’s totally hands-off. The website is online. If somebody orders, it goes to a service called Print On Demand. It sends the picture there, or the order there. They print it. They ship it to the customer. It’s kind of like a drop shipping model.
I realized that the biggest problem with this business that I created is nobody is waiting for it. People might be searching online for it, but there is very few people that are actually interested in getting one. It might be good for a gift or something, but it’s not that people wake up in the morning and say like, “Oh, I want to get a space poster today.” So with that, you kind of lose already a little of the marketability to use Google Ads. My main goal was to use Google Ads for this business.
I’ve run a couple of campaigns, and I’m sure we can also put it in the show notes on what the results were. But the results were that it was pretty expensive to run the campaigns, and I didn’t have a good return. If you look at it overall, probably I still lost money. I might have made it back. It’s still going, and it’s breaking even now. I’ve turned off the Google Ads. I still run some experiments, but I turned them off on a day-to-day basis.
This is something that has led me to kind of figure out, I took a step back from what I was doing and from what I was doing for clients, to kind of figure out like, if I’m supposed to know everything there is, or most of what’s important about Google Ads, about Google Shopping, and I can’t make this business work. So what’s going on? What’s missing? I was also looking at client projects that didn’t go as planned. I found there, that there were a lot of … it’s part of the business model. You can’t have like a bad offer … Well, it’s not a bad product, but it’s probably a bad business, because nobody is looking for it, or things with poor margin, or low order value. That was the same, I only make, I think, about $10 per order. That’s not a lot to drive paid traffic to.
I started thinking like, for Google Ads to be effective, because I want to tell this upfront. I want to know upfront with clients like, do we have a chance at making this work? Otherwise, you’re spending money, and I’m wasting my time, trying to do something that’s been hard. I figured out some businesses, like Google Ads, this isn’t a good fit. Although it might seem obvious now, it took me some time to really understand that it’s not something you slap on and then you make it work.
I think it’s probably something you see as well, right? You see businesses that come to you, and the underlying fundamentals are very poor, and they’re relying on you to do some kind of conversion magic, to get great results, right?
Joris Bryon: Yeah, absolutely. I do understand. There’s a lot of smaller businesses that reach out to me, hoping that with some conversion optimization magic, we’ll be able to make a bad business into a good one. But that’s just not going to happen. If you’re selling something nobody wants, I mean, there’s nothing you can do. You can try. It’s going to cost you a lot of money. I think it all starts with what you’re offering. That’s absolutely right. I think that’s interesting that you felt it. Logically, you already knew that, I assume. But by just starting it out and experiencing it first hand, that’s very valuable learning that you get from it.
You’ve been working with a lot of e-commerce companies over the years. Is there one particular trend that you see in e-commerce?
Dennis Moons: Yeah. A lot of the, like the last couple of years, FBA business, people selling on Amazon and having all of the … creating their own business on Amazon, has actually expanded dramatically, to get Amazon sites. But people selling there are on the whims of Amazon changing the rules, or banning them. A lot of these sellers, who are very successful, have very big businesses with lots of staff, as well, they are expanding and trying to get other channels in there, as well. A lot of them are branching out and opening up their own website.
I’ve worked in the last year with a couple of these businesses. It’s interesting, because a lot of the things we were previously talking about, about Google Ads not being successful for every type of business, it also relates to this one. For example, I have a client who was very successful on Amazon. They were doing close to six figures a month in revenue.
Joris Bryon: That’s not too bad.
Dennis Moons: They had a good product, which sold well on Amazon. They moved to their own website. So they thought like, “We need traffic. We don’t have any experience. Let’s start with Google Ads.” The numbers we had from Amazon made sense. It was a good order value. They had a lot of different products. That’s also important. They have good margins. The only unknown was the conversion rate. On Amazon, conversion rates are very high. If you run ads on Amazon, you get a very good return. You’re not going to get those same returns if you go to Google Ads with your own website.
Their website was all new. They had some conversion boosting elements, but you never know what it’s going to be until you start running traffic to it. The main problem with this project was that the people that order … the competitors, the people we were competing with in the Google Ads auction. It’s an auction system, so people who bid more … some advertisers might bid more, and outbid you and outrank you. The entrenched competitors, they had a very firm grasp on the life-time value of a client. They knew how much they could afford to pay to bring a person to the website, or to make that first sale. And I bet that these competitors, it was a business that had a lot of recurring revenue. And this customer also didn’t have any idea about the recurring nature of the business. They didn’t know if this customer … if you could, for example, lose money on the first sale, but then make money on the 10 sales that come after it.
These are things that you know if you’ve been in the business for a while. But as a new advertiser, you don’t know. So what happens is you get out-priced. All those competitors they know, “Okay, we can easily bid $4 for this click, because we know this is profitable for us.” While this advertiser is like, “I don’t know if I can bid 50 cents, because we’re not making the return we need. It’s a hard challenge. It’s an advertiser that is willing to grow, willing to spend money. But it’s just not there yet, because certain piece are missing in the infrastructure, and then it’s very hard to keep spending money, and keep spending a lot of money, and hoping to break into that market.
Joris Bryon: Yeah. It’s a totally different approach selling on Amazon or selling on your own site. A lot of those e-commerce, they have to learn everything from scratch when they start their own store. It’s a totally different game. But the beauty of it is, that you’ll learn a lot more about your buyers, you’ll get more data. You will understand your own business better, I guess, than when you’re just starting on Amazon. When you understand your business better, your market better, your consumers better, in the end, you will become a better business and you will serve your customers better, and will be able to sell more. But it takes a while, and there is a lot of trial and error and learning involved, over the course months or even years, to get there.
Dennis Moons: Yeah, definitely. And if I can add something to that. It’s also that by the time people decide to start branching out to their own website, they should actually, in my opinion, they should start thinking about this a year, or even more, earlier. It takes time and it takes away focus, as well, from the Amazon Marketplace. But if you already have your website, slowly building that organic traffic, slowly building those customer lists, that are all things that once you flip the switch and say like, “Okay, it’s time for us to get serious about our own e-commerce business,” then you already have that little bit of a foundation that will make the transition, or the expansion, a lot easier.
Joris Bryon: Yeah, absolutely. What do you think are the two or three keys to growing e-commerce business in today’s environment?
Dennis Moons: I think that the most important thing is to have a solid product, have a product that one, fills all of the metrics that we talked about, having a high enough price, having good margins. But then also the other side of it, not just thinking about the numbers, but also thinking about, is this a product that really goes, that’s really growing in demand? Do people actually want this? Because you can have the perfect product on paper, but if it’s something people don’t want or it’s a bad copy of something that’s already out there, it’s going to make your life a lot harder to do so. I think that’s the main thing. It starts with having a product that’s both, that has the demand, and it also makes sense economically.
Joris Bryon: Yeah, that makes sense. Hey, Dennis, this has been really great. We could probably go on for a few more hours, but we’re running out of time. Just before we go, I want to make sure people know how they can find you and learn more about you. What’s the best place for people to connect with you?
Dennis Moons: I think the best place is just go to StoreGrowers.com. You can browse the site, look at everything we have to offer. I have a free Google Shopping training, which you can find and will help you avoid a lot of the things that we talked about today. If you’re on Twitter, and you want to reach out personally, just add me, Dennis Moons @twitter.
Joris Bryon: All right. Thank you so much for being here, Dennis. It was absolutely great. Thank you.
Dennis Moons: Yeah. Happy to be here. It was a good chat.